E-Touch / E-Collar training

[cornishman]

[This topic was split off from another thread http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk/vi ... 9&start=10 by Admin]

I look forward to this discusion . as i have applied martin [Deeley]'s methods when training dogs with an E collar ,i find the tap on the shoulder to be a soft suttle interruption to the dog that is self serving Brian

[scotsgent]

I think I am right in saying that there is no text document which describes the process? The radio interview gave a general gist. As far as I can tell only those who attend a course are 'let in' to the details.

I have searched the net for more detail but can't find it. The 'method' doesn't seem to be published anywhere.

If its just using a collar to give a gentle 'tap' as an attention getter on already learned commands, then on the surface it doesn't seem particularly radical?

It may well be very effective of course, but I don't know enough about the subject to make a judgment.

Anyone have any more detail?

EDIT! ....I found these FAQ's on the method, but again, its very general:
http://www.aplusdog.com/index.php?pageID=52

Cheers, Terry

[cornishman]

(If its just using a collar to give a gentle 'tap' as an attention getter on already learned commands, then on the surface it doesn't seem particularly radical?) That is more or less it in a nutshell i can only speak for myself and my experience , i train dogs in the same way we all aspire to ie sit recall retrieve turn etc without the collar then introduce the tap on the shoulder as a interuption when a dog begins to self serve. An example might be your dog obeys the stop whistle instantly when training but starts to ignore when it gets on scent a light tap is no worse than a raised voice or a scruff of the neck , timeing is very important the command and tap in my experience must be applied together . An added bonus in my opinion is the handler remains calmer and doesnt get frustrated which if honest we all do Brian http://www.caredogtraining.com/Articles/Ecollar.pdf

[scotsgent]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that link, its quite informative.

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind?

1) The article seems to suggest that the 'tap' comes just before a command, where I think you mention the tap is given with the command? - is there any difference to these techniques?

2) Someone has to ask this, so I will(!), What do you do if the dog still doesn't respond?

3) I think the Tri-Tronics brand is the favourite in the USA, what good makes at a reasonable cost are available here?

I do hope we can have a conversation about this without lots of folks coming down on us! - I am interested in all effective humane methods of training and would like to know enough to decide if this method is of interest, thats all.

Cheers, Terry

[noviceboy]

maybe how the collar is used for a perticular problem and the process of how its trained would be useful to most of us?

[trekmoor]

Being of an experimental frame of mind I have tried e- collars on myself, on my D.I.L. (willingly ) and on my wife - not so willingly !
The better models can be adjusted by a little dial. I found that used on myself and my D.I.L. at level 3 we both felt an almost tickling sensation and level 4 was a tiny jolt. Far less than a static shock from a motor vehicle for example.

I now have had a fair bit of experience of using an e- collar on confirmed sheep chasers, I used level 6 on a 12 "nic" level control to begin with then adjusted the "nic" level to suit the individual dog.

I feel that one of the main dangers with the collar is placing too much reliance on it and using it in the wrong way and in the wrong circumstances. Chasing game would be one of them. It would be very easy to put a dog off working on game altogether. If a dog began to think that rabbit or pheasant = NIC then you would be in deep soapy bubble !!!

Terry, I think you will find that you get what pay for with e- collars. There are some on the market which are very cheap but they are ghastly and unreliable pieces of equipment. I think you will find that a good one costs around £170 -£200. Do not be tempted to buy for about £120 the very small type of collar with a tiny box on the collar and a thing no bigger than a key fob as your hand control. They become faulty very quickly and are very fiddly to operate......especially in a crisis situation - just when you need it most ! Their range is also very poor.

I can recommend one called "Professional PAC DXT Remote Trainer" Don't be tempted to send to the U.S. for one - they don't work here as one of my friends found out ! An incompatible electric recharge system ???

Think very carefully before using one of these collars Terry. One bloody idiot I saw using one was "teaching" his dog to return to whistle. His dog was out of sight in cover, I asked him how he knew when his dog was ignoring him or when it was already returning to him. All I got was a blank look. He may very well have been correcting his dog for returning to him !

Wullie

[WGD]

Terry, I think you will find that you get what pay for with e- collars. There are some on the market which are very cheap but they are ghastly and unreliable pieces of equipment. I think you will find that a good one costs around £170 -£200.

In frustration I researched e-collars for my current springer; I ended up not buying one and going back to basic, consistent training for months rather than weeks and I seem to be getting somewhere now. Take from that what you will.

However, I concluded that a collar from the Dogtra range would be best, as Wullie says it has a dial that can be adjusted from nothing to full power like a volume control rather than just on or off, and they do collars for various sizes of dogs so you don't blow a Cocker away with something designed to tap a Chesapeake.

Google will give you the company, they are American but have a UK distributor in England. Circa £220 from memory.

I have no greivance with those who choose to train their dog using an e-collar, but personally I would not like to for no other reason than I hate to see a dog working with a collar and I would be concerned about a dog becoming collar wise on shoot days. Perhaps that concern is bourne out of my ignorance of correct training methods using a collar, apologies if that is the case.

[t jack]

i have used an e-collar twice, once on my lurcher, i borrowed it off my friend, she had a very annoying habbit of breaking the heal command whilst on a walk on the beach and running full tilt upto other dogs, to meet them, she had never once casued any bother, but it was very embarrassing when she did this, as people would see this 27 inch hairy monster charging at them at 40 odd mph, i can understand their fear! and i hate it when others dogs do this

i tried everything to stop this and as a last resort i used the collar, one nick of it as she ran off to chase was enough to sort out the problem, the collar was returned the very same day .

the second time was when a wee russell bitch kept on climbing the garden fence and taking herself for walks, again she was doing no harm and the neighbours enjoyed her visits, but my other half was looking after our 5 month old daughter at the time did not enjoy her daily searches for her , i had to use it twice on the russell to cure the problem as the first nick she got, she dropped off the wall, turned round and the first thing she seen was Lexi the pointer pup, so poor lexi lying on the grass sunbathing, bore the brunt of the russell's anger at getting a shock ( i must admit i found it pretty amusing as i watched through the fence) i then moved all the other dogs away and repeated it as she climbed the fence, this cured the problem again.

just my tuppence worth

[scotsgent]

Wullie,

Learning more about them doesn't mean I will get one. At this moment in time I just want to have an informed approach. Its a subject which is almost 'Taboo' on UK forums and so, the best one can get is in USA Gundog forums which have a fair smattering of confirmed antis or brutal pro's!

Getting some good impassionate advice and knowledge about them can't be a bad thing, whichever way it might swing people.

You are right about buying anything from the States. 25% duty and vat, high postage charges and £100 return postage if they go wrong and then have to go back to the manufacturer makes no sense at all. Also, as you say, paying additional cash for a USA/UK converter. The £ vs $ conversion rate is nowhere near as good as it was a couple of years ago in any event.

Clearly, you have to have a very tight understanding of their effects. A keeper pal of mine described how he cured his terrier from chasing sheep in two sessions with the collar. He blasted the dog when it got within 5 feet of a sheep. This is pure aversion therapy and was justifiable since the only other alternative was to have the dog euthanised. The dog assumed that the shock came from the sheep, ergo: it stopped going near them - 'simples'!

But a similar technique when a spaniel is near a rabbit would be disastrous for it, or as you describe, your dog is actually coming back on a recall whistle. So it seems that you really have to be a 'trainer' first.

WGD

If i thought I had to use a collar for a long period, I wouldnt look at it twice! My assumption is that with proper collar conditioning it can be used as a means to an end to sharpen up a command or two and then no longer needed? I KNOW that in the USA some of these hard-headed Texan hunters keep them on their dogs all the time, but that wouldn't be for me (in any case they have rattlesnakes there and maybe if their dog runs off it just disappears for ever into the desert!). In fact, some of them have inbuilt GPS units.

From what I've read, a period of quality 'collar conditioning time' (wearing the collar for a few hours a day for a week or so before its ever used is essential to stop the dog becoming collar aware?)

TJack

I laughed out loud at the thought of your terrier having a go at the pointer for 'giving it a shock'!!

Cheers, Terry

[Judy]

So, what would you be trying to do with a collar that you couldn't achieve by taking time to train the dog and by always being consistent in your training? Why would anyone want to spend the best part of the price of a puppy in a training device which may or may not work depending on how well the "trainer" thinks through the problem before they use it? Evey single collar I have seen in use has been misused sooner or later, like our walking sticks which we are all guilty of tapping our dogs with in an absent minded moment the e-collar will be used wrongly unless the handler is well disciplined.

Train the dog properly in the first place and you wont need the collar (although I too have found my walking stick handy and no my dogs aren't stick shy nor does it hurt them!!).

Judy