Bad litter?

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Dartmoordog
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Bad litter?

Post by Dartmoordog » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:25 pm

Looking for a bit of advice from gundog breeders please.

A friend of mine’s ESS bitch has just had a litter of 8, but 2 of the bitches were unfortunately still born, leaving 5 dogs and 1 bitch pup. The bitch is a fine working gundog and the stud dog is owned by a local keeper. So good stock.

Would the health of the other pups be of any concern, or as my instinct tells me, it is just one of those things.

Cheers.
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

westcountry
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by westcountry » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Just one of those things,stillborn are in no way indicative of an unhealthy litter.

Dartmoordog
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by Dartmoordog » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:21 pm

Cheers westcountry, I just needed that reassurance as I really want a dog pup from that litter. Great bitch and stud dog, so now it starts again. 👍
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

Sgurr
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by Sgurr » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:07 pm

Just to add for reassurance, Ive been breeding ESS since 2006 and with the big litters that spaniels throw it is not uncommon to have one or two stillborn. A lot depends on the actual circumstances of the (natural) birth. If an early pup is taking a long time to come down the birth canal, then others behind it may separate from the placenta and lose oxygen. Also it depends on how good the breeder is at resussitating newborns with breathing issues, and if pups come quickly, it is easy to miss one - bitch licking a pup, breeder rubbing a new born and a third just slips out ......
A better marker for the health/viability of the rest of the litter is weight gain each day, general movement around the bitch and no pups lost after the first two days from birth - pups have to be kept really warm and lack of heat can be an issue with ongoing losses. If all is good, then the next potential problem is at around 2 to 3 weeks where pre-existing viral infections such as fading puppy syndrome can present and a healthy litter can go down very quickly. Once the little ones are around 3 or 4 weeks, weaning well and doing their escape routines getting out of the nursery crate then they should be fine.

Please do insist on a vet check before you home a pup, there are issues such as heart murmur that only a vet can diagnose - it is normal for there to be a very slight murmur in an eight week old as tissues are not yet fully formed but strong early indications are not good. I would also have the pup screened by a BVA Eye Panellist for Multifocal Retinal Dysplacia (cost about £15 per pup in the litter) between 6 and 12 weeks old. I would also DNA test for PRA Cord 1, Fucosidosis and PFK once the pup is weaned, costs about £150 and you can do the swabs yourself. If you put a bit of money and thought into health testing at the beginning, you know what you have before you put in all the time and effort on training.
Hope this helps and best of luck with your new addition!

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ips
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by ips » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:31 pm

Sgurr wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:07 pm
Just to add for reassurance, Ive been breeding ESS since 2006 and with the big litters that spaniels throw it is not uncommon to have one or two stillborn. A lot depends on the actual circumstances of the (natural) birth. If an early pup is taking a long time to come down the birth canal, then others behind it may separate from the placenta and lose oxygen. Also it depends on how good the breeder is at resussitating newborns with breathing issues, and if pups come quickly, it is easy to miss one - bitch licking a pup, breeder rubbing a new born and a third just slips out ......
A better marker for the health/viability of the rest of the litter is weight gain each day, general movement around the bitch and no pups lost after the first two days from birth - pups have to be kept really warm and lack of heat can be an issue with ongoing losses. If all is good, then the next potential problem is at around 2 to 3 weeks where pre-existing viral infections such as fading puppy syndrome can present and a healthy litter can go down very quickly. Once the little ones are around 3 or 4 weeks, weaning well and doing their escape routines getting out of the nursery crate then they should be fine.

Please do insist on a vet check before you home a pup, there are issues such as heart murmur that only a vet can diagnose - it is normal for there to be a very slight murmur in an eight week old as tissues are not yet fully formed but strong early indications are not good. I would also have the pup screened by a BVA Eye Panellist for Multifocal Retinal Dysplacia (cost about £15 per pup in the litter) between 6 and 12 weeks old. I would also DNA test for PRA Cord 1, Fucosidosis and PFK once the pup is weaned, costs about £150 and you can do the swabs yourself. If you put a bit of money and thought into health testing at the beginning, you know what you have before you put in all the time and effort on training.
Hope this helps and best of luck with your new addition!
Wow, very good and informative post sgurr 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

scotsgent
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by scotsgent » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:45 pm

Yes! - superb information - thanks!

Sgurr
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by Sgurr » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Thanks ips and scotsgent,
good to hear from you both, hope all is going well with you and your dogs, especially your cocker, Terry.

Cheers

Dartmoordog
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by Dartmoordog » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:20 am

Fantastic advice Sgurr, many thanks for taking the time to post. 👍👍
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

Sgurr
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Re: Bad litter?

Post by Sgurr » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:48 pm

Glad to help where I can. Hope all goes well for you and the pup. PM me if you have any concerns re the litter.

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