The ideal shoot

Any other gundog related questions, problems, etc.
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ips
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by ips » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:06 am

My ideal would be enough land to rough shoot just me and the dog and an occasional guest. The land would be big enough to take 4hrs to hunt at a leisurely pace and have a mix of woodland and rough stuff. If i could take my gun whilst dogging in on the estate i would be in heaven 😁 having said that i have pulled the trigger that many times in my life that shooting is now secondary to working the dog , i digress. 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

Nickheref
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by Nickheref » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:00 am

I don't think you are digressing really, the fact is if you have an interest in the dog work rather than shooting, you can have a really good day shooting very few birds but if someone else's dogs are constantly messing it up for you and your dog, you won't have a good day even if you shoot more game or I won't anyway. If you are paying for your shooting it hurts even more. On a lot of my ground I almost self impose a bag limit on myself simply because I want birds there to hunt next time and on the rare occasions I shoot 3 or 4 quite quickly I stop shooting and just hunt the dog and make it watch the birds away. Mind you the way I have shot for most of this season it hasn't been very often! :lol: :lol:
For me that is the difference between the "I have a dog I take shooting" brigade and those with gundogs!

Naj
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by Naj » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:36 am

It’s the hunting element that does it for me. Putting game in the bag with your own dog and gun. And I like to have to work for it rather than having it handed to me on a plate. I don’t like shooting game without a dog and I don’t like hunting a dog for game without a gun. In fact I don’t see that as hunting but training. I’ve done the dog work stuff, beating and picking up, and while I enjoyed it at the time my ambition was always to shoot over my own dogs and I wouldn’t go back now. So, for me, the shooting is integral to the dogwork.

Getting back to the original question, I’d choose my shooting friends very carefully. These ventures tend to grow arms and legs and I’ve known nice and friendly little roughshoots that have imploded or been ruined because some members have had different ambitions to others. :think:

Naj

reidller
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by reidller » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:56 am

Food for thought, thanks. I can see the numerous points made about having the wrong sort if dog owners on there, I'll have to do the sums and see how much I can afford. I do currently have some land to rough shoot on, but only having a labrador I struggle to shoot much unless they're sat right in my path.

Nickheref
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by Nickheref » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:25 pm

Naj wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:36 am


Getting back to the original question, I’d choose my shooting friends very carefully. These ventures tend to grow arms and legs and I’ve known nice and friendly little roughshoots that have imploded or been ruined because some members have had different ambitions to others. :think:

Naj
I inherited 2 on my best piece of ground that my ex shooting partner brought in without speaking to me when he was finding it harder to get about, "lads with good dogs" he described them as to me, not sure he had actually seen them or I had taught him nothing :brickwall: . There was a third but I made it very clear he and more importantly his dogs would have to go!! No money has ever changed hands and the shooting rights are mine (I am the only one the owner speaks to and I keep it that way deliberately) but I put up with them for old times sake as whilst I like them I am not so keen on their dogs but I wouldn't miss them, I organise the days and have been known to forget to tell the others that I am shooting :think: but have no guilt as they shoot for free and without me they wouldn't be able to go on that land at all.

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trekmoor
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by trekmoor » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:49 pm

This sounds a little bit like what some keen field trailers do in order to get the kind of work they need for their trial dogs. Maybe if you asked a couple of spaniel trailers to become partial, non shooting members, of a very small syndicate this could work ? By "partial , non-shooting members" I mean that they do pay but only half the amount the guns do . This would mean that their two individual payments made one "whole" syndicate member.

By doing this you would get the sort of dog work most likely to suit you and would help to keep the number of shooting syndicate members lower .

I was once a member of such a syndicate and it worked very well for both the trial dog trainers and for the guns.


I strongly advise you to be very careful about who you invite onto your ground. I used to train my dogs (for trialing) and shoot a farm of about 350 - 400 acres of mainly moorland with a few smallish fields of crops. I took my HPR's there all on my own thanks to a very friendly farmer for very little cash.

In just one morning on that farm I could shoot early morning flighting geese , often in big numbers, and then hunt my dog(s) for game. I sometimes could have shot pheasants, partridge, snipe, grouse , blackgame and rabbits and hares during a 2 - 3 hour long hunt. It was excellent ground.

Then I was asked by two people to help them train their dogs and I agreed and did this for nothing. They came, they saw ....and they conquered ! They went behind my back and offered the farmer so much money he could not refuse. I was nowhere near wealthy enough to compete with their offer and I lost that ground forever. That's what I got for helping people and for being too trusting.

Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Naj
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by Naj » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:24 pm

trekmoor wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:49 pm
This sounds a little bit like what some keen field trailers do in order to get the kind of work they need for their trial dogs. Maybe if you asked a couple of spaniel trailers to become partial, non shooting members, of a very small syndicate this could work ? By "partial , non-shooting members" I mean that they do pay but only half the amount the guns do . This would mean that their two individual payments made one "whole" syndicate member.

Wullie
My, my, Wullie. :o are you suggesting that field trial trainers don’t shoot over their own dogs. :whistle: :-D

I’ve always shot over my own dogs when ‘shooting them in’ and it’s a skill that can make or break a dog. I’d be very careful in choosing someone else to do that job and in the unlikely event that ever happened would want someone of experience and somebody who knows to concentrate on shooting for the dog and not for themselves. :think:

Naj

Nickheref
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by Nickheref » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:43 pm

That is how it can happen and why I don't let the others get to know the owner. When I first started shooting there I was the owners assistant at work and rented a cottage on the farm, he told me I could shoot his farm but he had also let another chap shoot it. So the pair of us agreed to join forces. I always coveted a small piece of land next to the farm as it had "pheasants" written in very big letters all over it, I asked my boss whose it was and when the chance came my boss gave me the job to help the owner of the small piece, who when he asked what he owed me I requested no money but permission to shoot that extra little piece of land and he agreed. When the next door estate was put up for sale I asked my boss what was going to happen to that piece, he smiled and told me he had already bought it for next to nothing :dance: . He was a bit like a second dad to me.
As a result my shooting partner and I rough shot the whole lot for about 15 years until he became less mobile and he wanted to make a really good rough shoot into a second rate driven shoot hence he brought others in to act as unpaid beaters which I objected to and my shooting partner knew I had more sway with the owner than he did and if necessary I would do something, so gave in. Two years ago my shooting partner gave up altogether and the other lads are getting on a bit so it is only a question of time before I have it all to myself without any friction and there is enough ground for me to be able to keep a bit of distance on most shoot days but my dogs still get few retrieves on those days as theirs run in if they see a bird down :twisted:

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trekmoor
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by trekmoor » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:45 pm

I agree with you Naj and always did shoot over my own HPR's ...mainly on the farm I mentioned but when I lost that farm I had to do a rethink and joined a little syndicate comprised of only HPR enthusiasts who wanted to trial their dogs. I knew all of them and their dogs well ….because I'd trained the lot of them ! The syndicate was split into full members and half members . The full members paid double what the half members did and it was mainly the ladies who were half members.

I was a full member and could shoot over my own dog ….or have one of the other full members do the shooting for me. The ladies got their dogs shot over by a full member which gave the full members a bit more shooting . It all worked out very well for all the people concerned. The guns knew what was needed for the dogs and did it. Only the dog being hunted was allowed off the lead during a hunt and that avoided a lot of problems !

I have heard of spaniel trailers doing much the same thing ?

Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.

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ips
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Re: The ideal shoot

Post by ips » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:37 pm

Nickheref wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:00 am
I don't think you are digressing really, the fact is if you have an interest in the dog work rather than shooting, you can have a really good day shooting very few birds but if someone else's dogs are constantly messing it up for you and your dog, you won't have a good day even if you shoot more game or I won't anyway. If you are paying for your shooting it hurts even more. On a lot of my ground I almost self impose a bag limit on myself simply because I want birds there to hunt next time and on the rare occasions I shoot 3 or 4 quite quickly I stop shooting and just hunt the dog and make it watch the birds away. Mind you the way I have shot for most of this season it hasn't been very often! :lol: :lol:
For me that is the difference between the "I have a dog I take shooting" brigade and those with gundogs!
👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

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