Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Questions and discussions on breeding your dogs
EssGrouse
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by EssGrouse » Thu May 26, 2016 7:42 am

deefer+tag wrote:I think amberquest is right. And I would look at repeat matings almost as though they were totally different (which they are). Having said that FTCH clarburgh art & FTCH polopit patsy had repeat marines and had FTCH's & ftw from all the matings.
A bit like those Helmsway bitches now, you can put a donkey on them and they would still produce.

I think Patsy would have been the same, my mate swears by that bitch line and wont have anything else.
Without Commitment, You'll never start.....but more importantly.....without consistancy you'll never finish.

Naj
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Naj » Thu May 26, 2016 7:47 am

But we're talking about competition success aren't we? Which all depends on where the pups end up. Litters that circulate around successful FT competitors are more likely to produce award winning dogs than pups that mainly end up with the general shooting community or less successful FT competitors. And also depends upon individual handlers the pup ends up with. One man's reject could be another man's FTCh. Doesn't mean that they won't all make cracking shooting dogs. :think:

Naj

newf
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by newf » Thu May 26, 2016 12:11 pm

Naj wrote:But we're talking about competition success aren't we? Which all depends on where the pups end up. Litters that circulate around successful FT competitors are more likely to produce award winning dogs than pups that mainly end up with the general shooting community or less successful FT competitors. And also depends upon individual handlers the pup ends up with. One man's reject could be another man's FTCh. Doesn't mean that they won't all make cracking shooting dogs. :think:

Naj

This makes sense to me. Opportunity and trainer, have to be huge factors. :)
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shamykebab
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by shamykebab » Thu May 26, 2016 5:11 pm

Ditto what Naj said. It is interesting though.

FTCH Purdey Of Bonhote Of Birdbrook had a very successful litter when first put to FTCH Greenwood Timothy Of Holdgate, producing FTCH and several OFTWs and FTWs. The repeat mating, not so successful, despite going to experienced handlers.

Likewise, FTCH Hatchfield Feargal x FTW Greenbriar Solitaire. First litter - 2 FTCHs, 2 OFTWs, an American MH, and some FTWs. Repeat mating with pups going to very successful competition homes, nothing significant produced.

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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Nickheref » Fri May 27, 2016 8:34 am

shamykebab wrote:Ditto what Naj said. It is interesting though.

FTCH Purdey Of Bonhote Of Birdbrook had a very successful litter when first put to FTCH Greenwood Timothy Of Holdgate, producing FTCH and several OFTWs and FTWs. The repeat mating, not so successful, despite going to experienced handlers.

Likewise, FTCH Hatchfield Feargal x FTW Greenbriar Solitaire. First litter - 2 FTCHs, 2 OFTWs, an American MH, and some FTWs. Repeat mating with pups going to very successful competition homes, nothing significant produced.
Interesting but not conclusive that is is just because it was a repeat mating that they were poorer, the counter argument is that a repeat litter might be better than the first in some cases (for exactly the same reasons of genetic diversity) but of course if the first litter is poor the mating won't get repeated as no one is going to breed something they think will be poor so we will never know:-D

I am not sure if Amberquest is the eldest but I am the youngest of three and according to this theory my eldest brother should be a star and I must be rubbish. In reality (and it's ok he definitely will not be reading this :lol:) the eldest is the least academic and least athletic of the three of us not just now because he is older but throughout our lives. The middle one is by far the most intelligent and pretty athletic in later life but wasn't interested when young as he was too busy reading stuff and playing the piano! The last ie me was less academic partly because I am not as bright as my elder brother (and was never going to compete with his academic achievements) and partly because I was too busy playing sport, fishing and shooting to worry too much about O and A levels and did the minimum necessary to pass when put under pressure by my trainers aka parents and teachers.

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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Dawnrazor » Fri May 27, 2016 11:35 am

Old wives tale or not, but it's surprising how many won't do it, some very successful and current spaniel folk too. Me, I never have, not even with terriers, come to think of it, I'm not sure if it's done too often with fox hounds?

kennel maiden
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by kennel maiden » Fri May 27, 2016 12:34 pm

The article below helps explain why you don't necessarily get the same second time round, if you are outcrossing particularly, as the combination of genes passed on would not necessarily be the same. The chances with line breeding are much better, to get more uniformity of output. And so, actually, COI does have a very real bearing.

https://gordonsetterexpert.org/2016/04/ ... -analysis/

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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Nickheref » Fri May 27, 2016 12:37 pm

I must admit I have never done it no matter how good the pups because you always think you can breed better and you have seen other dogs who have taken your eye and fancy a pup by but I cannot get my mind around any logical or scientific reason why a second litter should automatically be worse than the first. I have repeat mated other livestock and never seen any real difference between matings but they tend to have more limited life expectancies! I think they do repeat mate racehorses but have no info on whether there is any real difference between foals other than the sort of genetic differences you see between children.
I am just going to explain to my wife that the reason she has seen me popping around to see the cute little blond down the road was purely for the benefit of mankind, somehow I don't think she will accept that :lol:

Naj
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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Naj » Fri May 27, 2016 1:40 pm

So how many successful matings have been even better the second time around? Logic says that is just as likely as them being poorer. :-D

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Re: Repeat Matings - Successful in Trials

Post by Nickheref » Fri May 27, 2016 2:15 pm

Naj wrote:So how many successful matings have been even better the second time around? Logic says that is just as likely as them being poorer. :-D
Exactly what I was trying to say only poor first matings don't get repeated! :lol:

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