Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Questions and discussions on breeding your dogs
CockerCanuck
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by CockerCanuck » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:51 am

Interesting discussion, I had never thought about it before but I wonder if we are at a time where the combination of competitive trials and the ease of the internet in spreading results is actually working against the improvement of the breeds. Many years ago people just bred good dogs to good dogs based on personal local observation and experience in a very subjective way. Trials evolved to more objectively prove dogs performance and make this information more widely available, but still only to the relatively small number of competitors and breeders who participated in them. Now this combined with the internet means huge number of people know results of trails in minutes after they happen resulting in huge demand for the winning genes.

Each step in this process has resulted in a higher and higher demand for a smaller and smaller gene pool, and therefore a higher COI because we only want to see really GREAT dogs in our pedigrees. :?:

It would be what would happen to the human race if we only allowed Olympic medalist to reproduce.

newf
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by newf » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:04 am

CockerCanuck wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:51 am
Interesting discussion, I had never thought about it before but I wonder if we are at a time where the combination of competitive trials and the ease of the internet in spreading results is actually working against the improvement of the breeds. Many years ago people just bred good dogs to good dogs based on personal local observation and experience in a very subjective way. Trials evolved to more objectively prove dogs performance and make this information more widely available, but still only to the relatively small number of competitors and breeders who participated in them. Now this combined with the internet means huge number of people know results of trails in minutes after they happen resulting in huge demand for the winning genes.

Each step in this process has resulted in a higher and higher demand for a smaller and smaller gene pool, and therefore a higher COI because we only want to see really GREAT dogs in our pedigrees. :?:

It would be what would happen to the human race if we only allowed Olympic medalist to reproduce.

Good post CC. :think:
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein :whistle:

Naj
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Naj » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:20 am

newf wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:04 am
CockerCanuck wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:51 am
Interesting discussion, I had never thought about it before but I wonder if we are at a time where the combination of competitive trials and the ease of the internet in spreading results is actually working against the improvement of the breeds. Many years ago people just bred good dogs to good dogs based on personal local observation and experience in a very subjective way. Trials evolved to more objectively prove dogs performance and make this information more widely available, but still only to the relatively small number of competitors and breeders who participated in them. Now this combined with the internet means huge number of people know results of trails in minutes after they happen resulting in huge demand for the winning genes.

Each step in this process has resulted in a higher and higher demand for a smaller and smaller gene pool, and therefore a higher COI because we only want to see really GREAT dogs in our pedigrees. :?:

It would be what would happen to the human race if we only allowed Olympic medalist to reproduce.

Good post CC. :think:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Nickheref
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Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt

Post by Nickheref » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:30 am

Sgurr wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:38 pm
The pup I imported from Holland, Bailey, is COI 4.096% over 890 dogs going back 36 generations max but with some gaps on the Dutch registrations. So realistically I think she is about 6%. Where to go next - well she only has Clarburgh Art once in her pedigree so that gives me more scope. Just picking popular sires for examples - with Helmsway Heath 7.986% over a similar range, Hellraiser 8.639% , a stud with brilliant hips that I've got my eye on, 6.853% Vicky's Knots & Crosses, 6.621% It's not so much the mating of this bitch, it's where do I go with the bitch pup I keep from her. If I were younger I would look seriously at an outcross with a show ESS as that would get the COI down to 1% or 2% and breed back to working lines. But time is not on my side - and it is a case of recognising that ESS are in trouble as COI's are gradually going up. Bailey is only one this month so I've got another year to worry about the problem!
Isn't this the point though, you mention that Art only appears once almost as a bonus (not that I necessarily disagree with you!), he or his father Robb crop up more than any other sires in the pedigrees I look at. Thus as far as I can see the answer is, if the Kennel Club genuinely think a rising coi is a major threat to the breed and care enough to want to do something about it, it should bring in a restriction on the number of litters a dog can sire, we already have a restriction on the number of litters a bitch can have. This would prevent fashionable sire syndrome at a stroke and make people look at bit harder than merely using a famous dog to help sell their pups, it would also make the owners of the "fashionable" sire look carefully at the bitches he is put to rather than just taking the cash. It would be a pretty radical step and may have some interesting consequences on value of pups by these dogs, what long term effect it would have on the working abilities of the breed is debatable. It is no use using a dog with a low coi if everyone else is going to use him, as in a couple of generations you are back where you started with a rising coi.

Sgurr
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Sgurr » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:44 pm

The AKC has a Frequently Used Sires Requirement -

Effective for litters whelped on or after July 1, 2000, AKC DNA Profiling is required if a stud dog is classified as a Frequently Used Sire, meaning that he has produced seven or more litters in his lifetime or more than three litters in a calendar year.

This was introduced for verifying Registration rather than to restrict use of a stud and I see no reason why the KC should not adopt the principle. On the COI issue, I expect the KC would just say have an input of show line and working line in the breeding as that would bring down COI dramatically - there is just one breed standard so they see one breed. Shipden kennels have tried over the years to produce show dogs that can work but I've never heard of any trialling.

I am trying to trace a dog bred by a friend of mine who used a show stud on a grand daughter of my Glen and the pup went to a gamekeeper in Lewis who apparently was delighted with him. The show stud was not exaggerated, looked more like an old fashioned worker but he was neutered not long after the mating. My friend has had a computer crash that lost records so she is just hoping the gamekeeper gets in touch again - he does so off and on. If I can trace the dog pup and he is working well, then I'd be happy to use him - pups from him would be 1/4 show and 3/4 working.

I think your suggestions are too radical for most people, even though they would hopefully prevent sub-standard bitches being bred from. But the KC depends on Registrations for income so I can't see them doing anything further to reduce their cash.

Naj
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Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Naj » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:34 pm

That's a really good point, Nickheref. :clap:

Naj

Dawnrazor
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Dawnrazor » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Nick, what's the COI thingy of the sisters we have, I've not, don't know how to!!, checked.
I know and understand people's view on this, I'm not sure, sgurr's idea of out crossing to a show dog I can't get my head around, I understand the "coi" angle, but what else do you sacrifice in such a mating for working springers? Hard mouth, noise, lack of any style, are show springers any more or less health tested than working springers? I seriously doubt if that mating would make the slightest difference to the over coi in working/trialing springers apart from your own as I don't know a single person who'd buy a x show springer or use a dog on thier bitches however well intended the breeding was.

Sgurr
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Sgurr » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:04 pm

DR that is why it is a risk and why I am saying I am too old to do that. Show lines are far more health tested than working lines. But as a breed, and show are about 10% of the breed the COI is going up and that is a cause for concern.
If you do an outcross to a show, then COI comes down to 1 maybe 2 % . You are hopefully gaining confirmation but initially lose working ability. By gen 3 with the right breeding then working ability should be back and a lower COI for pups. If I were 20 years younger I would do that as most of my sales are to pet homes and they just want a KC dog wih a good temperament = can do that in spades. But Sgurr does more than that and I am retirement plus so not willing to start something I won't finish. Talking to my kennel partner but he is a Dawnrazor at the moment.

Judy
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by Judy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:29 am

Just how much working ability though? You may lose the sheer speed of a Trial line but I'm sure the split between work and show is relatively recent so the show side must carry some residual ability which makes me think the dogs will all work, just breed from the better workers in the next generation. There will come a time when winning at competition and popular sires have to be put to one side in favour of improving the lot of the breed itself. The big question is who will be brave enough to admit it and take the first step? ;)
If in the process of winning, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing. Paul Elvström.

CockerCanuck
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Re: Re: My Pup from hollydrive Kurt Health Testing diversion!

Post by CockerCanuck » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:49 am

I was thinking along the same lines Judy. My little Fergal has 7 FC American and UK in his three generation pedigree. Do I need that for what I expect of him; probably not? It is sort of like buying a Maserati to commute to work. I just need a good solid working dog. Unfortunately it seems most us today feel we need to go to top field trial breeding to get that.

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