Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

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Naj
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by Naj » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:49 pm

newf wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:29 pm
Naj wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:51 pm
I’ve had some experience of aggression in dogs. Punishment, severe or otherwise, will only suppress the behaviour and may even increase it or direct it towards the handler. :think:

Naj
Really ! So when an aggressive pup attempts to steal something from an adult dog, and he gets bit, the stealing behavior is only suppressed and he never learns a thing, and in the future, will become more aggressive toward the dog who has taught him a lesson ? Maybe this terrible outcome floats around in the world of positive only 'science' but the real world explains it differently. :think:

So this fellow has no clue ? Lucky he handles only a pack of dogs and not just one, he could have his hands full.

https://youtu.be/AC4cACp-E2w
Sorry, Newf, it’s not particularly a positive thing, just common sense. You only have to look at your punishment guru, Caeser Milan, to see how easily aggressive punishment used against dogs in our care so easily backfires. If you have the time you can spend an interesting half hour on u tube watching clips of him being repeatedly bitten by dogs when he’s not spotted the oh so obvious warning signals the dogs are desperately trying to give him and pushed on regardless with trying to punish them. True, many dogs of a soft disposition will be cowed by severe punishment but some will fight back.

Apart from the fact that we are human and they are dogs with their own unique way of communicating between themselves and where inter dog aggression is either a last resort or a behavioural failure, grown dogs don’t actually bite pups to teach them manners, they go through various rituals before finally snapping if all else fails but rarely connect. And this is a species related behaviour but it’s still a learnt one. And it’s easy to see that this simply suppresses behaviour. If a dog snaps at another over a bone it doesn’t mean the losing dog will never touch that bone again. If the other dog loses interest in the bone and walks away the one that lost it will have no qualms at going and taking it. In another instance the positions may easily be reversed because these squabble are generally over resources or bad manners. In our interactions with them, the majority of dogs are steadied using punishment in one form or another but even when steadiness has been ‘trained’many still go on to develop unsteadiness, meaning that the punishment has not stopped the behaviour, simply suppressed it.

But we digress. And there’s a huge difference between nipping unwanted behaviours in the bud and having to undo an established behaviour such as this one seems to be. I thought CC made good sense.

Naj

jas_williams
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by jas_williams » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:31 am

WGR - Working Golden Retriever ???

Nickheref
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by Nickheref » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:39 am

Just a thought, are you sure you are blaming the right dog for the aggression?

I was asked by a friend to take a dog and train it for him as he was in and out of hospital, the dog was about 2 and needed something doing with it, he seemed a nice honest decent dog and I was enjoying training him. One day he set about the oldest dog in my kennel much to my surprise. I jumped to the conclusion that it was all the fault of the young dog and put him on watch, all was peaceful for a couple of weeks and then I heard something brewing, so I just watched and it was actually the old dog very deliberately baiting the young dog, pushing him for some time, the young dog showed considerable patience but eventually had no choice but to come out fighting, the youngster only did enough to stop the old dog but it did involve teeth!! A particularly stupid thing to do as the youngster was fit, younger and weighed half as much again as the old boy :lol:

I am no psychologist but my conclusion was that the old dog bitterly resented the youngster being "parachuted" in and the youngster had no innate respect for the old one, to him he was just another dog not a dog he had learnt to respect as a pup..

munstyman
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by munstyman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:04 am

We could all write into the op's post a 101 scenarios where they might have got it wrong about the dog and the `type' of aggression the dog displayed. The things that set my alarm bells ringing were `rescue/rehomed' and the fact she is a bitch. I'm reminded of that old saying which rings true, ` dogs fight to breed, bitches fight to breath' Dogs have a natural pause button when they fight where they can re-assess their position. Bitches, give more pre-warnings before getting into actual fighting but once beyond that point they don't seem to have the same inbuilt mechanism to break away and just keep going.
I agree with Nick, though in that its not always the bigger/stronger/ fittest and youngest dog that finishes the fight that starts it in the first place, especially when there has been an introduction to the family unit. ( I'll leave it to Naj to explain pack theory :whistle: :lol: :lol: )

Judy
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by Judy » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:16 pm

We can't offer advice without seeing the dog and what the problem is, it could be either the older dog or the handler / owner thats starting off the fighting. I know one of mine would quite freely take a pop at one of the others if I didn't intervene on occasion, interestingly I've seen both the oldest and the youngest dogs also intervene when Grumpy kicks off on her bully tactics. I think I stick with my original suggestion of contacting the Rescue you got her from and letting them deal with the issue. This forum is not the place, sorry.
If in the process of winning, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing. Paul Elvström.

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trekmoor
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Re: Lovely 2 year old spayed bitch WGR needs a new home

Post by trekmoor » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:42 pm

For the most part I agree with Judy in this case .... a gundog forum where nobody can see what the dog is doing now or has done in the past cannot really help with this behavioural problem. If a home could be found that has no other dog that might solve the problem provided the dog mixes fine with other dogs outside of it's home environment.

I have a lot of sympathy for this dog and for it's owner. My two cockers, Charlie and Billy, sire and son, hate each others guts and about once a week trouble kicks off between them. We have had Billy, the sire of Charlie for about 7 -8 years now and we are well used to keeping those two apart .....most of the time ! Both dogs meet in the house and that is where the trouble always starts.
They have often shared the dog box in the back of my car but apart from a rumble of protest .....that I soon put a stop to, this is not a big problem.

They go out walks, or training or to shoots with never a hint of trouble from them ...... I think the problem stems from a form of "possessiveness" in the house. Charlie likes to think he owns everything ....including me or possibly, in particular , me.
My other two dogs just submit to Charlie's demands of "ownership" but his sire never does.

To judge, probably incorrectly, the O.P.'s dog's behaviour , I'd plump for possessiveness since , if I read the opening post correctly, this dog did not show aggression to the other dog straight away. Only when it had been in it's new home for a sufficient length of time to feel possessive over anything, did the problem start.

I'm sorry I cannot really help with this ..... I can't even stop my own dog feeling possessive ! I too think this dog should be returned to the Dog Rescue place.

Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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