Beating Line problems

Discuss any aspect of training you have, ask questions, share tips and advice for any breed of gundog.
Dartmoordog
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Dartmoordog » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:20 pm

I like birdy. ๐Ÿ˜€๐Ÿ‘
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

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ips
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by ips » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:51 pm

Dartmoordog wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:20 pm
I like birdy. ๐Ÿ˜€๐Ÿ‘
Me too ๐Ÿ˜ someone used the term on here a few weeks ago, I had never heard the term but made it my lifes ambition to use it at some time.....i lead a quiet life ๐Ÿ˜‰
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

Springfield Pointers
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Springfield Pointers » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:29 pm

Dartmoordog wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:22 pm
Aimeetess wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:17 pm
Dartmoordog wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:57 pm




1. You donโ€™t need to teach your dog (Spaniel) how to hunt, they know far more about that than you do. How true.
2. Keep your signals, calls, hand signals simple. 1 peep = Stop and sit NOW. With hand raised, Palm out. 2 peeps = Look at me for instruction. It was always used to turn the dog, but as long as he looks back and says โ€œwhat!โ€ Thatโ€™s fine by me. 3 peeps = Recall..... NOW.
3. Never let a Spaniel get away with anything.......They are Spaniels, give them an inch!
4. Watch your dog as much as you can, pick up his habits, were is he looking, where is his nose etc.
5. There is no point in a dog hunting just 3/4 meters from you, let him go as far as YOU want him. We have a large gorse bank on one of the shoots I beat, it always holds birds.......I ainโ€™t going in there! So I must trust him.

You sound very knowledgeable Dartmoordog! Makes a good read! Specially when my 5 month cocker pup starts getting into some serious training. I think the biggest struggle will be the stop/sit whistle at a distance - I may be messaging you for some help with that! :) :lol:
Good heavens Aimeetess, I will do my best. I will be doing it all over again myself next year!

What sit command do you use now, just verbal, verbal and whistle, verbal, whistle and hand? Verbal, whistle and hand is where you want to be. Your dog should also sit at either signal individually, or two of the three.......If that makes sense. ๐Ÿ˜€

Cheers.
Whistle, hand and voice should be equally interchangeable and always obeyed. If your dog will do this, in any situation, you can take it anywhere and let it develop as you wish.

Dartmoordog
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Dartmoordog » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:39 pm

Springfield Pointers wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:29 pm
Dartmoordog wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:22 pm
Aimeetess wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:17 pm


You sound very knowledgeable Dartmoordog! Makes a good read! Specially when my 5 month cocker pup starts getting into some serious training. I think the biggest struggle will be the stop/sit whistle at a distance - I may be messaging you for some help with that! :) :lol:
Good heavens Aimeetess, I will do my best. I will be doing it all over again myself next year!

What sit command do you use now, just verbal, verbal and whistle, verbal, whistle and hand? Verbal, whistle and hand is where you want to be. Your dog should also sit at either signal individually, or two of the three.......If that makes sense. ๐Ÿ˜€

Cheers.
Whistle, hand and voice should be equally interchangeable and always obeyed. If your dog will do this, in any situation, you can take it anywhere and let it develop as you wish.
Yep, totally agree, interchangeable is the word I was looking for. Get this spot on and you are well over half way there.
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

Naj
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Naj » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:40 pm

Nickheref wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 am
I am not sure I agree, the "trialling rules" are there because it makes for the most efficient shooting companion, a dog quartering properly shouldn't miss game, a dog who stops on the flush will not interfere with the shot (nor career off after a hare into the distance) and may well mark the fall better. A beating dog to me is a shooting dog without the shooting and stopping (or at least checking with it's handler that it can go on) to the flush merely prevents the sort of problems Aimeetess was talking about. I do not like a spaniel who simply follows it's nose as it has effectively taken control, it may then stick it down and hunt in a straight line missing ground and possibly game in the process (moving too fast forwards for the line) without any thought as to where I am and the next thing is you are separated, time for lots of confusing whistling. There is a danger that a dog getting to the front too early on it's own will then assist with the picking up because the training often involves a lot more time and effort on retrieving than quartering and hunting or the dog simply finds a load of birds who have run forward and it doesn't take a reasonably bright dog long to work out that if you want to get into the birds go like hell at the beginning and ignore your handler. In most beating lines there is a lot of whistling and noise which confuses young dogs. Like anything with "man made rules" it can be taken to extremes by people but the basic premiss of quartering and stopping to the flush are to my mind at least sound. If there are so many flushes it doesn't make any sense to stop the dog to them then you probably don't need a dog to work the ground. I have seen some collies working very well as beating dogs.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Dartmoordog
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Dartmoordog » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:07 pm

Naj wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:40 pm
Nickheref wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 am
I am not sure I agree, the "trialling rules" are there because it makes for the most efficient shooting companion, a dog quartering properly shouldn't miss game, a dog who stops on the flush will not interfere with the shot (nor career off after a hare into the distance) and may well mark the fall better. A beating dog to me is a shooting dog without the shooting and stopping (or at least checking with it's handler that it can go on) to the flush merely prevents the sort of problems Aimeetess was talking about. I do not like a spaniel who simply follows it's nose as it has effectively taken control, it may then stick it down and hunt in a straight line missing ground and possibly game in the process (moving too fast forwards for the line) without any thought as to where I am and the next thing is you are separated, time for lots of confusing whistling. There is a danger that a dog getting to the front too early on it's own will then assist with the picking up because the training often involves a lot more time and effort on retrieving than quartering and hunting or the dog simply finds a load of birds who have run forward and it doesn't take a reasonably bright dog long to work out that if you want to get into the birds go like hell at the beginning and ignore your handler. In most beating lines there is a lot of whistling and noise which confuses young dogs. Like anything with "man made rules" it can be taken to extremes by people but the basic premiss of quartering and stopping to the flush are to my mind at least sound. If there are so many flushes it doesn't make any sense to stop the dog to them then you probably don't need a dog to work the ground. I have seen some collies working very well as beating dogs.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Yep, what a great statement. Certainly a lot of food for thought there Nick. Thanks.
Be careful what you say about my wife or kids, be VERY careful what you say about my gundogs.

Aimeetess
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Aimeetess » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:37 am

Nickheref wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 am
I have seen some collies working very well as beating dogs.
Sorry off subject now! :naughty: I agree. We have a collie. I always trained her to come back to the whistle from a pup, she was never gun shy luckily as I've met a lot of collies who are. As a 2yr old I randomly decided to take to watch while I was picking up. She sat with me, eager and watched our lab. A bird dropped behind on the 3rd drive, a safe retrieve and confident she'd come back I sent her on it.. My god shes fast, she bought it right back to me.
That was the first of many last season as it helped having a second dog, she absolutely loved it. Never had any training as a gundog in any way, except the recall whistle. I had a few dislike seeing a collie picking up, and a few love it and were quite shocked. She was quick enough to beat any spaniel or lab on our shoot, she has also beaten once and helps push back birds into pens and my god she has a nose on her. I think they're such a intelligent breed, they pick up things easily.

She ran at the a fun country show this year in the gundog scurry.. she would of came second but wasn't allowed to be on the board as she wasn't a spaniel or lab. If she was fully trained i'm sure she could do trials too but wouldn't be allowed as of the breed.

Anyway.. back to the subject now!

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ips
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by ips » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:00 am

Nickheref wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:09 pm
I expect any dog to go like it means it when cast off. The problem is if the dog is not quartering and it has any pace it is only going to go forward too quickly. If it just bumbles about then it doesn't matter but I don't want to walk behind it :-D
I see the same problem when rough shooting, dogs drilling forwards with their handlers almost having to run to keep up or face watching birds flushed well ahead as the dogs are hunting for themselves rather than working their beat, which as they have to cover a lot more ground, enables the line to move forward at a sensible pace. If a dog is bumbling about and quartering then you are moving too slowly to cover enough ground.
Ok nick, I am convinced now about quartering when beating a wood. Given this some thought and what you say makes sense, if dog isn't quartering its going forward. This is exactly what sometimes happens to me which is very annoying as I spent all summer quartering her very close to my feet hunting for tennis balls.
So.....how to go about training quartering very close and ignoring scent or birds visible ahead and pulling forward ??
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by Nickheref » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:38 am

I am not sure I am the man to advise anyone on training cockers, the only person on this forum who loves them more than me is Dawnrazor! :lol:

I am sure there a plenty of cocker fans who can help and it can be done as I have seen a few , the reason being is from my experience most springers will hunt on very little or no scent (scent just engages the turbo boost) and therefore you can work on quartering without game/scent pulling them about too much and they get the basic idea and learn the distances required before you need to introduce game, but I am not sure this is the same with cockers as most of those I have seen a lot of (which is not that many) don't get involved until there is scent at which point their mind is elsewhere.

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ips
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Re: Beating Line problems

Post by ips » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:38 pm

Exactly nick, she will bypass areas she thinks or knows have no birds and occasionally pull out presumably on ground or air scent.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

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