Become a positive trainer for 7k

Discuss any aspect of training you have, ask questions, share tips and advice for any breed of gundog.
newf
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by newf » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:49 pm

Long term goal: Over time, if that crowd and others that follow suit, can get enough trained up and certified in their ideology, then those groups will be bettering their future position to lobby and change legislation. It will be only a matter of time, that only 'certified trainers' will be able to work with any dog. 'Certified' meaning controlled and reined in by their ideology...rationality won't have any basis in dog training.

Originally, the PP crowd promoting its model, claimed their approach was superior and faster. Now, it seems, failing that bar, ethical guilt is being bandy about.

I apologize for my negativity. Don't know what came over me ? :roll: :)

Naj
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by Naj » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:18 am

Couldn’t make head or tail of what it all cost. However, in the interest of balance :-D , you might not have heard of her but the organiser is one of our leading trainers in this field of training, has run training classes, workshops and seminars throughout the year for many years now, is highly qualified, Shoots regularly herself, has trained her own dogs for shooting for many years, manages a shoot specifically to provide her clients with every type of shooting experience so can take them right through basics to working on game and on to shoots, and her fees for gundog training and shoot over days are comparable with any other professional gundog trainer. So if you’re interested in learning that style of training you couldn’t do better. As I understand it this new venture is aimed at training the trainer and pushing up standards so is a more professional level course. I don’t see why anyone should feel threatened by it or think it a bad thing to improve basic standards and skill sets within the training profession. It might not be for you but there is a growing demand for this type of training and people willing to pay to learn. That’s just the same with more traditional methods. But Traditional trainers don’t seem very interested in promoting best practice within their industry or in developing any accreditation scheme so it’s a bit of a lottery for customers using their services. Perhaps this is down to professional jealousy or trainers make a good enough living as it is, who knows. But no need to worry about sinister conspiracy theories, Newf, to put things in perspective this is still very much a minority group within the gundog community. The vast majority of pro gundog trainers in the uk are not force free or Positive or whatever you like to call them and there is still a great demand for those wanting to be taught by a field trial winner or learn how to best use corrections from them. So something for everyone. :think:

Naj

Judy
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by Judy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:22 am

Whilst people are being expected to pay 2.5k for a three day course I doubt anyone needs to feel threatened, most people can't afford that kind of money so I doubt we'll be swamped by positive trainers any time soon.
The KC run an Accredited Gundog Trainer scheme and have done for a while now, not sure what that costs.
Most of us manage just fine by reading books, joining the local gundog club, going out with others, it really doesn't have to cost a great deal of money to prove you can train a dog to an acceptable standard. The above charges seem obscene to me even with a wee piece of paper at the end to say you have attended a course and managed to remember what the instructor has said for the duration of that course.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

Naj
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by Naj » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:13 pm

I agree, to a certain extent. I’ve never paid for a lesson in my life apart from subs to a knock about training club where I was pressed into actually being a Trainer by my then mentor when I was really still learning myself, and I trained my first gundog solely by following a training manual. So I’d like to think that instructors today are a bit better qualified than I was, back in the day. The course in question actually offers a bit more than training, it offers accreditation so you have to abide by a standard that people can trust so it’s no wonder that it costs a bit more if people will be using it as a selling point in their business.

It is an inescapable fact that (what shall we call it?) modern (?) training practices are in demand and trainees are looking for some qualification of basic competence in behavioural knowledge and training from Trainers offering these services so it is very much demand led. Which I can’t see a problem with. And there is also a great interest in behavioural science and structured learning so, again, demand led. But this just reflects societal changes. Name any hobby and there is a plethora of web groups, courses, residential courses and qualifications associated with it, simply because people enjoy learning about their hobbies and are willing to pay to enhance their leisure time. It’s just the same with gundogs and I’m staggered by how much people pay to go to pro trainers and shot over days but that’s the way of the world.

I wonder what the general view would be if ‘traditional’ pro trainers became organised in similar fashion, formed networks and had accreditation bodies that ensured good practice and minimum standards of welfare, training and customer care? The methodology is pretty standard and the thinking behind it, albeit dated now, is defineable. I would have thought it would be seen as a good thing and there is nothing stopping pro trainers from organising in this way. As it is anyone can set up as a gundog trainer. They might or might not have had success at field trials but it’s a bit of a lottery whether they have the skills to be able to train people to train their dog, or whether their methods would be acceptable. :think:

Naj

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trekmoor
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by trekmoor » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:15 pm

It would seem the old saying was right ….there really is a mug born every minute ! :lol:

These kind of tuition prices have been taken straight from some of the other branches of dog work such as guard dog or police dog work. There is no need for this blatant money grabbing in gundog work though.

I am confident I could get 20 one hour 1 - 2 - 1 sessions with a really good pro trainer for a fraction of that 7k. price ….even if he charged me £50 per session it would still "only" cost me £1000 ! If he then took me to a "shotover day" ...or 10 of them at £100 per day it would still only cost me another £1000.

If I could not learn enough from him during 20 one hour sessions and 10 shotover sessions to be a reasonably good gundog man then I'd be better to take up playing tiddlywinks instead ! Total cost of 20, 1 -2 -1 lessons and 10 shotover days …. £2000. And I'd consider that cost to be a bit too much too !


At 7 k. these lessons are a total rip-off ! The certificate is worthless . I do not think a bit of paper proves someone is a good dog trainer who is now capable of training others …..only experience coupled with some natural ability on a trainers part can qualify someone as a pro gundog trainer.


Wullie
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newf
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by newf » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm

Naj, there is a functioning body of pro trainers set up, though international, it is the IACP. This group has no toleration for abuse or cruelty within their ranks. However, the body allows trainers to utilize whatever methods are required to reinforce or punish behavior.

This rational approach looks at behavior outside of a ‘Skinner box’ and the ‘rate of response’ the go to(s) for this pseudo science. I say that, because it ain’t real science if one ignores nature and forces a fit...it’s an ideology.

And as to a demand for this model, well if you’re new to training, then, you’re an empty vessel to be filled with utopian ideas held up by lowered standards and the hanging guilt of wandering outside the mantra.

As to the advertisement; I get the impression the goal is for certification and not just this 1-2-1 stuff to get a gundog owner over a glitch in their training. It is to legitimize the movement and highlight anything outside of it as being unqualified, unscientific and of course abusive. Ironic, disregarding nature is considered scientific while observing nature and our place in it is antiquated. :)

Naj
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by Naj » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:55 pm

Well I’ve found associations for the police and counsellors but nothing to do with dog training, Newf. :) And I’m not quite sure how the organisation that you’re referring to can marry their lack of toleration for abuse and cruelty within their ranks with allowing whatever methods are required to punish behaviour and, presumably, the dogs committing that behaviour. But I’m glad that they, presumably, provide guidelines between what constitutes legitimate correction from that of abusive practices, and that they recognise the distinction. It would be interesting to hear how many pro gundog trainers in the UK are members of this organisation. :think:

Life’s moved on since Skinner, Newf, and so has modern dog training methods. Even if, like you, they wish to continue with their own methods this that keep harking back to Skinner and his laboratory experiments to rubbish another method should move on and catch up with modern developments instead of living in the past where they, presumably, feel more comfortable. And I’m far from new to training and have chosen to cross over as have others who are far more successful with their dogs then I aspire to, so it does rather beg the question. :-D

Naj

munstyman
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by munstyman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 pm

my problem with all these `accreditation' schemes is that it can be come a box ticking exercise. Anybody who can tick those boxes to get the piece of paper to be come `accredited' can and do so without the practical experience and accumulated knowledge to deal with those `real' problems that the general public may want to resolve. ( The Monty Roberts legacy )
I have encountered several now, incidence of Behaviourists, all waving their bits of accreditation and letters in their job title, and charging absurd fees accordingly. Who have failed to address a solution to the problem or have even made a problem worse, imo, and when the owner has come to me I have sorted it out in a matter of an hour ( and a cup of coffee or two :whistle:) Some of what they were told was bunkum, some others were so up there bottom with a particular methodology they were blind to the obvious, and then there were those that simply could not read the dog....but they had the bit of paper that said they could :evil:
As SP continues to point out training a dog is relatively simple, it should be enjoyable for both the handler and the dog. The dog is your best teacher, but if you need help look for those that have a practical record and come recommended by others....if you want bits of paper.. take up origami with fifty pound notes, make a swan , and throw it for the dog.... the dog will then show you what its good for :whistle: :lol: :lol:

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ips
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 pm

In the society that we currently live in "accreditation" from a proffesional body is an absolute must for many "professions" it is the way of the world and in "most" scenarios is to do with insurance, litigation and or H&S. I myself sat through a seminar in order to gain a loaders accreditation, and spent many many weeks filling in form after form in order for my company to gain "construction line gold level" both of these are purely to do with me stating that i will do things a certain way, (best practice and all that) presumably this positive course will set out guidelines, boundaries and methods that will be universally adhered to by all that gain the accreditation. I see no particular problem with the concept however 7k does sound like a high figure.

PS
I thought there already was a force free training accreditation scheme ran by totally gundogs ?
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

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trekmoor
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Re: Become a positive trainer for 7k

Post by trekmoor » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:02 pm

munstyman wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 pm
my problem with all these `accreditation' schemes is that it can be come a box ticking exercise. Anybody who can tick those boxes to get the piece of paper to be come `accredited' can and do so without the practical experience and accumulated knowledge to deal with those `real' problems that the general public may want to resolve. ( The Monty Roberts legacy )
I have encountered several now, incidence of Behaviourists, all waving their bits of accreditation and letters in their job title, and charging absurd fees accordingly. Who have failed to address a solution to the problem or have even made a problem worse, imo,
This has been my experience of "accreditation schemes " too. This included one young woman (funny how it's usually wummin :think: )who had a dog , raised by her from a puppy, that she could not let off-lead in the local park where I bumped into her a few years back. Her dog would not recall "outdoors" .....but she had all the right lingo for positive dog training and a "certificate" to say she was a Grade A trainer. She was going to set up her own dog training school locally and presumably charge accordingly for the lessons.

Gawd help her poor students ! Her dog was a very nice GWP bitch that had won several obedience type competitions ....indoors ! I tried to point out to her that my dogs , a gsp and two work bred cocker spaniels , could all run-free in the park but she would neither listen or learn. It was "positive" and a clicker only for her . Personally I think that the lady herself had been trained by a clicker but her dog was only half trained .....outdoors.

I'd have liked to have owned her pup from 8 weeks and I am damned sure it would have responded to the recall command outdoors and out shooting .....or else !
The lady had a doggy training bit of paper but did not have a doggy training brain ! :roll:

Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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