different types of dog work

Discuss working your Gundog or tell us about your experiences be it sublime or ridiculous!
Judy
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Judy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 am

Miesque wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 pm
ips wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:46 pm
Miesque wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:34 pm
That article is tosh - beating dogs can and should retrieve
From my limited experience I disagree. The best beating dogs I have seen (on the estate with lots and lots of birds) do appear to have little interest in retrieving. They mill around until asked to hunt cover then mill around again, yes I have seen these dogs run in and be corrected for it but you can see a difference between those dogs and dogs like my one that have been allowed to retrieve and dog in etc

The best beating dogs I've seen are two international field trial champions. Without being conceited our head keeper has openky said he'd kill to have several like my dogs in the line - they all retrieve. We put down 40,000 birds so its high octane at the end of drives, a well trained dog should still be controllable with game in front of it All you're doing by saying beating dogs shouldn't retrieve is giving yourself excuses for when things go wrong and an easy out in training.
All very well saying that when you are experienced with dogs, know what final product you need and have the facilities to get to that point, most people don't, certainly not when they are starting out. If you 'only' beat and 'only' want a dog for beating then formal retrieve training is a waste of time apart from Wullie's point about, maybe, gaining more control over the dog by teaching it to be a steady retriever.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

Miesque
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Miesque » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:01 am

Still not buying it, sorry. Retrieves are a useful reward in raining and very helpful to develop steady dogs. I've had a non-retriever, he was no steadier than my dying to retrieve lot! For the work that a lot of shoots want of a beating dog - herding vs actual hunting, I do wonder if a well trained collie wouldn't be a better option!

I agree a lack of facilities can be a struggle at the start but I do the vast majority of my training in a National Park and a Commercial forestry so sparse game and no shooting allowed, we manage. I am lucky to have access to a large estate now to train as I like but I certainly didn't start out with that!

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ips
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by ips » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:08 am

Judy wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 am
Miesque wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 pm
ips wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:46 pm


From my limited experience I disagree. The best beating dogs I have seen (on the estate with lots and lots of birds) do appear to have little interest in retrieving. They mill around until asked to hunt cover then mill around again, yes I have seen these dogs run in and be corrected for it but you can see a difference between those dogs and dogs like my one that have been allowed to retrieve and dog in etc

The best beating dogs I've seen are two international field trial champions. Without being conceited our head keeper has openky said he'd kill to have several like my dogs in the line - they all retrieve. We put down 40,000 birds so its high octane at the end of drives, a well trained dog should still be controllable with game in front of it All you're doing by saying beating dogs shouldn't retrieve is giving yourself excuses for when things go wrong and an easy out in training.
All very well saying that when you are experienced with dogs, know what final product you need and have the facilities to get to that point, most people don't, certainly not when they are starting out. If you 'only' beat and 'only' want a dog for beating then formal retrieve training is a waste of time apart from Wullie's point about, maybe, gaining more control over the dog by teaching it to be a steady retriever.
Exactly Judy 👍
The problem is for us novices (especially awkward gits such as myself who muddle along as best we can without any formal training) is that it takes a few seasons before you really have an understanding of exactly what you need from a dog based on the type of work/shoot you do. However by that time you realise you have inadvertently cocked, by which time it's too late. Personally I now know that my one is totally retrieve obsessed and therefore very difficult to keep at heel and hunting very close on big volume of birds type drives. I think that unless your very experienced if your doing different types of work such as my all round syndicate type job and then big volume very controlled type estate stuff then you need a dog trained specifically for each discipline. I am more than happy with her on the syndicate and I reckon I could train another for plodding on the estate but I am not sure I could train one dog for both disciplines, which has pretty much been my point on various threads in the past. Just looked in my shooting diary and this season we will have had....

60 ish days dogging in
8 days general dog work on syndicate
5 days beating on estate (because I have been loading on 8 days)
2 days beating on another small shoot
2 days general dog work on keepers days)
2 days as peg dog on formal driven
Possibly 2 days shot over on boundary days

So, considering that the days spent as a general all rounder (and i am more than happy with her for that) are considerably more than plodding on the estate beating line, and accepting the fact that this will more than likely remain the same on future seasons then its probably not worth worrying too much about how difficult she is om the big days.

This discussion and the articles that have been posted and digested have really helped me to put things into perspective 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

westcountry
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by westcountry » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:57 pm

Have to agree with miesque,a working gundog should be capable of making a retrieve,otherwise you might as well work a terrier. I have done so myself and seen terriers do good work in the beating line.

Springfield Pointers
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Springfield Pointers » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 pm

westcountry wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:57 pm
Have to agree with miesque,a working gundog should be capable of making a retrieve,otherwise you might as well work a terrier. I have done so myself and seen terriers do good work in the beating line.
Although I share your view, and personally, I like a bird dog to retrieve, and I train for it. It should be said that many very capable bird finding dogs produce game for the gun, but do not retrieve - nor are they expected to.

They are called "Pointers". ;)

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trekmoor
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by trekmoor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:28 pm

So far I have seen terriers of various kinds, lurchers, corgis, border collies and even a Newfoundland doing a days beating. The big Newfie really loved the job, he took any cover that wouldn't get out of his way with him ! :lol: He was quite a good retriever too. He belonged to a very wealthy "peg gun" who went beating once and then said he preferred beating to shooting as it was more fun ! I trained a lab for him as a peg dog but her owner still went beating , that Newfie was one hell of a nice dog and a real character but I wouldn't have liked the job of cleaning the mud and brambles out of him once he got home !

One terrier I really liked belonged to a gamekeepers son. He went rough shooting and duck shooting with me a few times. The terrier was, I think, a Norfolk x Jack Russell and he worked well as a spaniel and was easily controlled ! :o He loved retrieving too and I once saw him drag a pinkfoot goose back to us by it's neck. His owner often demo'd the little dogs party trick, he'd use both arms to throw the dog high into the air and the terrier would snarl like crazy on the way up and down then , when it was caught as it fell it licked the hell out of the mans face. I'd have liked to have owned that little dog.
From what I can remember that dog was soft mouthed on dead game but hard mouthed on anything still live.

P.S. I regularly see a lurcher that works as a picking-up dog. She beats every other dog on the shoot when she runs in ! :lol: .....Her mouth is a trifle suspect though !

Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Springfield Pointers
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Springfield Pointers » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:28 pm

trekmoor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:28 pm
P.S. I regularly see a lurcher that works as a picking-up dog. She beats every other dog on the shoot when she runs in ! :lol: .....Her mouth is a trifle suspect though !

Wullie
No chase.
No gawp.
Just crunch.

Judy
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Judy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:52 pm

Hmm, I reckon chase is a given, after all it is a Lurcher! Granted gawp it may not do.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

CockerCanuck
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by CockerCanuck » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:54 pm

Springfield Pointers wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 pm
westcountry wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:57 pm
Have to agree with miesque,a working gundog should be capable of making a retrieve,otherwise you might as well work a terrier. I have done so myself and seen terriers do good work in the beating line.
Although I share your view, and personally, I like a bird dog to retrieve, and I train for it. It should be said that many very capable bird finding dogs produce game for the gun, but do not retrieve - nor are they expected to.

They are called "Pointers". ;)
Which is why on the most exclusive southern quail plantations they carry Cockers in the mule drawn wagons to do all the important work after the Pointers have done their flamboyant running around ;) .

Springfield Pointers
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Re: different types of dog work

Post by Springfield Pointers » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm

CockerCanuck wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:54 pm
Springfield Pointers wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 pm
westcountry wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:57 pm
Have to agree with miesque,a working gundog should be capable of making a retrieve,otherwise you might as well work a terrier. I have done so myself and seen terriers do good work in the beating line.
Although I share your view, and personally, I like a bird dog to retrieve, and I train for it. It should be said that many very capable bird finding dogs produce game for the gun, but do not retrieve - nor are they expected to.

They are called "Pointers". ;)
Which is why on the most exclusive southern quail plantations they carry Cockers in the mule drawn wagons to do all the important work after the Pointers have done their flamboyant running around ;) .
Ha ha. You keep the faith. Cocker's certainly do have their uses, and I love them, but I hardly think they would be able to keep up with big running pointers.

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