The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Discuss working your Gundog or tell us about your experiences be it sublime or ridiculous!
Naj
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Naj » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:13 pm

If it’s a competence test for hunting to the gun does it really matter what breeds are involved? As I understand it it’s common for folk to use Retrievers as a questing breed in the States, as it is in the uk, where it used to be common to see them in the beating line and hunting up when rough shooting. As regards terriers, my Polish Uncle was a great and lifelong hunting man and while he started out shooting over a GSP he finished by shooting over Teckels, well into his eighties. Those terriers were genuine general purpose hunting dogs that were equally at home whether he was hunting deer, boar or pheasants with them. :think:

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chrokeva
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by chrokeva » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:26 pm

I would just would like to clarify that this is a "spaniel hunt test" but they do allow other varieties of flushing dogs to enter.
It is also interesting to note that AKC has "retriever hunt tests" and those tests do not allow spaniels (springer or cocker) to enter.

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Lloyd90
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Lloyd90 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pm

DO the dogs not get disqualified for anything?

One spaniel was singing he whined so much, and I'm almost certain one of them even barked (the golden maybe?)

Plus several of the dogs were a bit reluctant to hand over the birds - that's not normal is it?

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chrokeva
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by chrokeva » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Lots of ways to get disqualified or there would be no point in doing a hunt test.

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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Blackjaw » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:19 pm

IMO Americans are to likely to let noise slide or make excuses for it. As I recall there is no penalty for whining in Hunt Tests. American spaniel field trial rules state that noise while questing should be severely penalized, but even then many judges seem to make excuses or let one or two episodes go unpunished/marked down. All to often when a dog at hup is released to hunt it will make noise and a judge will excuse it by saying 'well the dog wasn't in the act of questing'...

As far as reluctance to give up the bird, as long as it isn't damaged (and again, imo, many judges don't check birds very well) it isn't an eliminating fault. I think the rule in hunt tests is the handler can stretch forward to get the bird, so if you are tall and can stretch one leg forward and get the bird you are ok (I hope someone more up on the rules can clarify).

At the Master level, the major things the dogs get disqualified for are passing birds, failing retrieves and breaking.

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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by crackerd » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 pm

chrokeva wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:26 pm
I would just would like to clarify that this is a "spaniel hunt test" but they do allow other varieties of flushing dogs to enter.
It is also interesting to note that AKC has "retriever hunt tests" and those tests do not allow spaniels (springer or cocker) to enter.
But does allow the continental pointing breeds - HPRs - in those retriever tests, Jackie - would be wise, I think to open 'em to the breeds you cited, too.

But not open them to "non-sporting" (i.e., non-gundog) breeds as naj sort of suggested - even though some retriever orgs in N. America - NAHRA, namely - allows a run for everything from St. Bernards to border collies. I'm still waiting to see my first Wheaten in any kind of gundog or retriever test - since they get billed in the Emerald Isle as a sort of all-rounder.

Blackjaw spot on re noise and "creeping," particularly in retriever FTs - alas, ask me (shamefaced) how I know this...

Oh, yeah: naj, almost every group of working dogs regardless of what their work is has their own field trials in AKC, even breed-exclusive field trials for the likes of Portuguese water dogs. Coursing trials for sight hounds, etc. "Earth Dog" trials for the terrier group. Teckels are included with dachsies, of course, and a friend of mine, a falconer, judges their FTs - she also carries her mini-dachsies afield, literally, when she "tree-hawks" with her Harris hawk. Will try to send you a link via PM to her and her hunds' "work."

MG

Naj
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Naj » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:49 pm

Thanks, MG. Would appreciate that.

As regards noise in the Gundog breeds Some uk handlers are very good at suppressing it. You could argue that every dog has the potential for a squeak in it, no matter what the breeding. They’re dogs, after all, and are subject to letting vent their emotions if the occasion arises. I had a friend who hunted a pack of Cockers (trial bred) on rabbits for standing guns and he liked them to make a noise when hot on the trail of a rabbit. Said it give them a better chance of not being shot, and since he’d lost some dogs through careless guns he wasn’t kidding.

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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by trekmoor » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:47 am

Although , in our trials, it is the kiss of death to run a dog that whines or barks with excitement, this fault doesn't seem to bother "the average shooting man" too much unless the dog does these things constantly. In my late 20's I sold a fully trained young springer spaniel to a shooting man from the Ayrshire area after warning him that the reason I was selling the dog was because he "yipped" when he flushed game. I sold the dog for the princely sum of £10 because I wanted to do field trials and would therefor need to buy another pup.

The man contacted me soon after to say he was delighted with the dog and was having no problems at all with him. I at once thought the man had discovered a way to stop the dog yipping and that I'd sold a future field trial champion for a tenner …..being a true Scot this thought broke my mercenary heart ! I asked the man outright …" But doesn't he bark when he flushes game from thick cover ?"
"Yes." the man replied, "but that tells me to get the gun ready cos something is going to come out ! It's great !"
The dog suited the man's purpose which was rabbit shooting among thick, extensive gorse bushes.

Just a few years after that I had a field trial winning lab that would give one tiny almost unheard whine in one situation and only in that situation. She'd whine if she saw a pigeon coming when I was pigeon shooting over decoys from a hide. This seemed to happen if I wasn't looking towards the oncoming pigeon.....it was almost as if she was trying to warn me ??????


For a while I was really worried about that whine but she only did it in that specific situation . I did nothing at all about it because it suited my purpose.


I agree that some trial handlers are pretty good at "suppressing it." I had another lab that would whine or even "yip" when she was sent for water retrieves. I suppressed that and it never happened again.


Much as I rather like to see breeds such as the border collie used at shoots as gundogs I think you are mad in the States to allow them to compete in gundog tests/trials. A lurcher , for example, will be much faster than a lab on marked retrieves and will have sufficient nose to deal with blind retrieves too. It may be a "one off" though and it may be hard mouthed and/or inclined to whine or yip. Not a good thing to deliberately give awards to for gundog work.


Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Nickheref » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:59 am

I've seen a few weird and wonderful things out over the years, the problem I have with it is most of them run in and chomp the game with enthusiasm. The worst offender was a Rhodesian Ridgeback who was a keen retriever but I didn't fancy trying to eat any of the game afterwards. It always surprises me the enormous pleasure the owners seem to get from having a dog like this and in their eyes proving that we are all wasting our time and you don't need a gundog for gundog work but I can get my car across most fields if they are flattish and dry but not if the going gets tough and rutted but the 4wd is better at it whatever the conditions!!

Naj
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Re: The 'Merican way (of flushing - and shooting - and of course, sporting 'hunter orange')

Post by Naj » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:58 am

I don’t think it’s a competition, per se, Wullie, more of a competence test, so a faster retrieve ain’t going to make any difference? :think:

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