Willingness to please

Discuss working your Gundog or tell us about your experiences be it sublime or ridiculous!
Naj
Member
Posts: 5962
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:47 am

Re: Willingness to please

Post by Naj » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:17 pm

Nickheref wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:33 am
Is it willing to please or actually understanding what is wanted?
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Judy
Co-Admin
Posts: 15140
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Willingness to please

Post by Judy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:24 am

So, are you saying dogs who understand what is wanted are the amenable ones or the apparently amenable ones are simply more intelligent?
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

Nickheref
Member
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:09 pm

Re: Willingness to please

Post by Nickheref » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 am

I think willingness to please is shorthand for three things
1 A dog who wants to do the job you want it to do
2 A dog who has a good temperament and enough brains to understand
3 A dog who is engaged and listens to its handler

The first 2 are down to the breeder, the last one to the trainer. If any one of those bits is missing the dog will be labelled unwilling to please. It might mean different things to different people, so a dog who might be keen and bright will be too much dog for someone who fails to achieve 3 and so seen as wilful and unwilling to please whereas if 3 is achieved the same dog will be considered willing to please.

Yesterday I spend an hour trying to get two bits of electronic wizardry to talk to each other, according to my mates it should have taken 5 minutes but at the end of an hour I had not managed it although both bits of kit told me they could see the other one but wouldn't talk to each and was ready to smash them both into very small pieces. They had no desire to please or displease. I wanted it to work so in some ways I had fulfilled requirement 1, I failed in requirement 2 as I didn't know which buttons to press but that is partly because I am not interested enough in computes to bother spending hours learning about them when I could be fishing or shooting so in some ways I also failed in requirement 1.

User avatar
ips
Member
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 7:34 pm
Dogs: Eze "cocker"
Location: UK

Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:41 am

An interesting analogy nick 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

Naj
Member
Posts: 5962
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:47 am

Re: Willingness to please

Post by Naj » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:31 am

Judy wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:24 am
So, are you saying dogs who understand what is wanted are the amenable ones or the apparently amenable ones are simply more intelligent?
I’m not thinking any of that. :angel: :lol:

It’s quite simple I’d have thought. If a dog understands what is wanted then it’s pretty obvious that this must be because your communication skills are good and you’ve been able to effectively train that behaviour. Blaming a dog by dismissing such problems as the dog being unwilling to please rather than your inability to communicate is really only an excuse for the trainer’s inability. If you can learn from that then you’ll become a better trainer but if you’re not prepared to then you'll Always have a problem with some dogs. As I’ve pointed out before the language of ‘willing to please, wilful disobedience, stubborn, headstrong, taking the P etc’ is purely a construct of those who teach with corrections and physical dominance and is unheard of among those who train without them so I’d suggest it’s not he dog that is the problem. :think:

Naj

munstyman
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:17 pm

Re: Willingness to please

Post by munstyman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:14 pm

With Naj's adding to Nicks 3, you've pretty much got it covered. :think: Willingness to please is always going to be balanced with the personality and ability of the handler to adjust to the dog. I like, and get on best with, the challenging dog rather than the easy one. As they say opposites attract that must make me sweet and easy going :think: :whistle:

newf
Member
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: Willingness to please

Post by newf » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:30 pm

No, maybe, stubbornness and taking the ‘P’ is not how the dog’s mind works but he is an automonious and instinctive creature. As such, you can always ask the dog for something but that doesn’t mean he will ignore his desires or the push from his DNA.

On the point of communication compare the two scenarios:

A dog rushes and jumps visitors:

1) one could punish the rush and jump and reward a sit or;

2) one could simply ignore the rush and jump and reward a sit.

Which of the above is clearer in communication, faster and more permanent? It has nothing to do with stubbornness but all to do with being a dog.

In the first, punishment inhibits and a reinforcement unambiguously directs the dog. The second, attempts to reinforce a sit while the potential of the bad behavior still exists, uninhibited. In other words, the next happy visitor can have the dog jumping, since both behaviors are still present and reinforceable. More to the point and relatable; a young person likes to smoke, giving them the keys to the car for putting down the smokes is not going to kill their desire for the next draw. :think:

User avatar
ips
Member
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 7:34 pm
Dogs: Eze "cocker"
Location: UK

Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Um, would no 2 not eventually become a more reliable behaviour as the dog will learn itself that not jumping gets a reward, the behaviour is therefore changed. Whereas no 1 is merely punishing the dog for doing what it wants to do rather than changing the dogs mindset long term therefore the desire to jump remains and is merely stifled.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

munstyman
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:17 pm

Re: Willingness to please

Post by munstyman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:25 pm

I really must get off here and continue my accounts :doh:
I tend to agree with you ips :think:
Which of the above is clearer in communication, faster and more permanent?
These are three different components and not exclusive to the outcome, that word `consistency' is missing and faster does not always mean permanent. Likewise , marking the unwanted behaviour aside, to punish the unwanted behaviour is really reliant on the threat of that punishment forever being present :think:
I would argue that a pre-emptive sit and reward would be better all around. :think:

User avatar
ips
Member
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 7:34 pm
Dogs: Eze "cocker"
Location: UK

Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:32 pm

munstyman wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:25 pm
I really must get off here and continue my accounts :doh:
I tend to agree with you ips :think:
Which of the above is clearer in communication, faster and more permanent?
These are three different components and not exclusive to the outcome, that word `consistency' is missing and faster does not always mean permanent. Likewise , marking the unwanted behaviour aside, to punish the unwanted behaviour is really reliant on the threat of that punishment forever being present :think:
I would argue that a pre-emptive sit and reward would be better all around. :think:
Good god, 😀 if my sciatica wasnt playing up i would jump up and shout "yeeha" one of my learned friends considers i got something correct..😁👍
Could this possibly mean that i am learning some stuff ?
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

Post Reply