Willingness to please

Discuss working your Gundog or tell us about your experiences be it sublime or ridiculous!
Judy
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by Judy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:39 pm

ips wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm
Um, would no 2 not eventually become a more reliable behaviour as the dog will learn itself that not jumping gets a reward, the behaviour is therefore changed. Whereas no 1 is merely punishing the dog for doing what it wants to do rather than changing the dogs mindset long term therefore the desire to jump remains and is merely stifled.
But the dog stifles its desire to jump whichever way you train it.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

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ips
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:45 pm

Judy wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:39 pm
ips wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm
Um, would no 2 not eventually become a more reliable behaviour as the dog will learn itself that not jumping gets a reward, the behaviour is therefore changed. Whereas no 1 is merely punishing the dog for doing what it wants to do rather than changing the dogs mindset long term therefore the desire to jump remains and is merely stifled.
But the dog stifles its desire to jump whichever way you train it.
I see it like this, no1 YOU stifle its desire the desire remains forever present just waiting for that occasion that the dog can no longer contain itself. In no2 the dog "eventually" stifles its desire of its own fruition having learned that by not jumping it gets rewarded, therefore the behaviour is more reliable long term
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

Judy
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by Judy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:51 pm

Only if you keep rewarding, much like Naj would say you have to keep up the punishment regime to contain the behaviour. As most people involuntarily reward the dog by fondling its lugs whenever it jumps up it can be one of the hardest "behavioural problems" to sort. :lol:
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.

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ips
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:00 pm

Judy wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:51 pm
Only if you keep rewarding, much like Naj would say you have to keep up the punishment regime to contain the behaviour. As most people involuntarily reward the dog by fondling its lugs whenever it jumps up it can be one of the hardest "behavioural problems" to sort. :lol:
Ha, good point 😀
I gave up on the jumping up a very long time ago 😁
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

newf
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by newf » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:29 pm

No 1) diminishes the behavior as reinforcement increases the good behavior. Very soon, punishment becomes rare and is shelved as maintenance. However, the good behavior is being reinforced.

No 2) reinforces the sit alright but the jump behavior is lying in wait for any reinforcement. It’s on an almost equal playing field since it has not been inhibited.

So, when a dog picks up a pheasant runner it learns to avoid being pricked by just a fluke of reinforcement of a good hold? Does the punishment maintenance need to be revealed frequently? Not likely. However, once learnt, the dog will work a successful behavior of handling the bird ? What caused this strong learning ? Could it be contingent punishment working with positive reinforcement? Nature at work.
Last edited by newf on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ips
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by ips » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:17 pm

newf wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:29 pm
No 1) diminishes the behavior as reinforcement increases the good behavior. Very soon, punishment becomes rare and is shelved as maintenance. However, the good behavior is being reinforced.

No 2) reinforces the sit alright but the jump behavior is lying in wait for any reinforcement. It’s on an almost equal playing field since it has not been inhibited.

So, when a dog picks up a pheasant runner it learns to avoid being pricked by just a fluke of reinforcement of a good hold? Does the punishment maintenance need to be revealed frequently or once learnt the dog successfully
now works a behavior that is reinforcing but punishment got him there. Nature at work.
Um, interesting. I am not convinced though 😏
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.

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Re: Willingness to please

Post by Naj » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:12 pm

newf wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:29 pm
No 1) diminishes the behavior as reinforcement increases the good behavior. Very soon, punishment becomes rare and is shelved as maintenance. However, the good behavior is being reinforced.

No 2) reinforces the sit alright but the jump behavior is lying in wait for any reinforcement. It’s on an almost equal playing field since it has not been inhibited.

So, when a dog picks up a pheasant runner it learns to avoid being pricked by just a fluke of reinforcement of a good hold? Does the punishment maintenance need to be revealed frequently? Not likely. However, once learnt, the dog will work a successful behavior of handling the bird ? What caused this strong learning ? Could it be contingent punishment working with positive reinforcement? Nature at work.
You really have to look at where jumping up behaviour comes from. It’s a learned behaviour, so if a pup routinely jumps up it is because it has inadvertently been taught to by being rewarded for doing so, which is very easy with a pup. So the obvious solution is to not encourage pups to jump up and don’t reward them if they do jump. But presuming you now see this as a problem behaviour, which usually happens when it’s no longer fun being jumped on by a lump of a dog with muddy feet, you still punish the behaviour by removing the reward that is positively reinforcing it. That can be as simple as turning your back or restraining it with a leash, or gently ensuring all four paws are on the floor with a very young pup, then reward for four on the floor. Replacing the jumping behaviour with a four on the floor behaviour is what you should be heading for and you can also do this by training a new greeting behaviour, no (negative) punishment involved. As soon as the dog heads towards you preempt any jumping up by tossing a treat over it's shoulder and keep repeating this until it stops to anticipate the next treat and then you’ve got the basis of a new behaviour. You can also just scatter treats at your feet when it approaches . You can then step in and stroke it or whatever. I prefer to train like this because I like a dog to figure out the right choices and volunteer the behaviour I’m looking for Due to it being the most rewarding option. I find you get stronger behaviours this way than when you’re stopping dogs from doing stuff you don’t want. And I did use to do that. I’ve kneed them, stepped on their toes, pinched their front feet, jerked them etc but my current way is far more effective plus I no longer want the dog to make the associations between me and physical corrections that I once did.

I do think this notion that dogs get pricked by birds and this can influence how they retrieve is another one of those gundog myths that is passed down the generations without any thought being given as to whether it is actually true. It seems to only be there to fit a narrative. I’m sure you, like me, Newf, have lost count of the runners/cripples your dog’s have retrieved over the years. Many of those have been where the dog has coursed a bird in the open and I’ve yet to see a cock pheasant or any other bird turn and try to spur a dog. They’re too preoccupied with escaping. And a dog is invariably going to grab them by the back or back end. With the sharp bits pointing away from them. They run more of a risk of being spiked by a broken wing bone, as I often am when plucking a bird. Birds also generally go passive once held by a dog. They might ‘wake up’ and scratch the handler when they take the bird but I’ve never seen one do this to a dog. So I don’t believe that dogs learn or even think about avoiding being pricked by a runner. They learn how to handle and carry birds but they’re so pumped up I doubt very much that they’d even notice a scratch from a bird. In fact, the belief in the UK is that being spurred by a cock pheasant is a cause of hard mouth in young dogs but I don’t believe that either. :-D

Naj

newf
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by newf » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:11 pm

Naj, the jumping behavior is something dogs do. Ignoring it, does not eliminate it, it is still ready to come out in its full force. Punishing it, will inhibit it, then throw the treats on the floor if you like. That is naturing learning.

You do not ruin your relationship. You ruin relationship by abuse; that is, punishing with no tie to behavior. And of course, one could add no chance of reward. :)

nanalander
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by nanalander » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:00 pm

All very informative, also applies to my pup, and what to do about the jumping up. Kibble in my pockets at all times to scatter round my feet, what about when they leap onto your dressing gown in the middle of the night when you come downstairs, lol.
I have resorted to tucking it into my pj bottoms, to avoid it being ripped to shreds. :-D

Naj
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Re: Willingness to please

Post by Naj » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:03 pm

newf wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:11 pm
Naj, the jumping behavior is something dogs do. Ignoring it, does not eliminate it, it is still ready to come out in its full force. Punishing it, will inhibit it, then throw the treats on the floor if you like. That is naturing learning.

You do not ruin your relationship. You ruin relationship by abuse; that is, punishing with no tie to behavior. And of course, one could add no chance of reward. :)
Read what I said again, Newf, I recommended punishing the behaviour direct. You prefer to correct the dog in the hope of punishing the behaviour. I’ve done both and they both work. But either way Classical conditioning will ensure that whatever methods you use will affect the relationship and emotional state of the dog through simple association. I didn’t say this ruined a relationship, simply that it made for a different relationship.

You keep mentioning natural learning but I haven’t a clue what you mean so that’s maybe why were going around in circles. :think:

Naj

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