Article on the state of the modern day springer spaniel

[madrags]

I favour big, bold, hard hunting springers. My first dog Rags was by one of Chris Thurston Woolnough's dogs with lots of Badgercourt and Bricksclose. Buzz and Rowf are half-brothers bred by a friend who also likes really big, hard hunting springers. He has been breeding his dogs for about half a dozen generations now, and one of the first matings he arranged was to send his bitch to Rags' maternal grandsire (Trevale Roger) Their lines are similar to Rags', but with a fair bit of Edgegrove too. There is no doubt that smaller dogs appear faster and busier. I will continue to seek out the type of dog that I like, as I do not give a fig for fashion or trialling.

[peterbeater]

another thing regarding these old bloodlines.every one mentions badgercourt when talking about old bloodlines.badgercourt was effectivley gwibernant owned by mr erlandson.mr erlandson did not like the most famous badgercourt dog which was druid untill he got a dog by him namely cortman lane.i remember a article written by mr erlandson when he describes having to teach cortman lane how to find game yet these old bloodlines are supposed to be the ultimate natural hunters? Post edited to correct quotation.

[Rothievale]

Fair comments peterbeater, you seem to have an extensive knowledge of trialling dogs and their history, something that I do not, I only came into the sport recently, I first started gamecarrying and stewarding at trials in the west country in 2002. Interesting to hear another opinion. I am assuming the 2 heavily marked FTCh stud dogs you are referring to are Saturn's Spirit and Hattonswood Broc?

[BIKRS]

another thing regarding these old bloodlines.every one mentions badgercourt when talking about old bloodlines.badgercourt was effectivley gwibernant owned by mr erlandson.mr erlandson did not like the most famous badgercourt dog which was druid untill he got a dog by him namely cortman lane.i remember a article written by mr erlandson when he describes having to teach cortman lane how to hunt ,yet these old bloodlines are supposed to be the ultimate natural hunters?

Thats funny because in his book he says that he bought Lane because of his hunting after seeing him at a trial.

[keanerthanroy]

I would prefer to form an opinion on more than one example. The modern day spaniel as a whole has gone lighter framed, whiter, faster, softer, more trainable and has less natural ability. I also believe as it said in the article that there are so many hang ups / quirks in these dogs. I have a bitch (about 14 months) by Saturns Spirit and out of an Edgegrove bitch and it is a breath of fresh air and has all the traits I look for in a spaniel. It might not look as tidy as some of the dogs it will compete against but it is a real game finder and has the bravery and determination to get the job done whatever the situation. Training has been a pleasure as I have just moulded what she has wanted to do naturally.

Jonathan

[BIKRS]

I have a bitch that is out of a sister to a championship winning bitch by a champion and she is as soft as hell.

[keanerthanroy]

I've experienced exactly the same. It makes it even worse when you've also parted with a big pocket full of cash!!!

[trekmoor]

While I accept that every one of you folk know much more about spaniels than I do, I was on the go with gundogs 30-40 years ago and though I didn't have F.T. bred spaniels back then , my mates did, including one or two F.T.Ch.'s. I don't really remember those dogs as being particularly hard or soft. Some were and some were not , much the same as now. The trial lads, just like now, favoured the harder dogs . I was never very sure whether this was because they could take more in the way of physical correction without becoming too subdued for trialing or because the "harder" type of dog often trashed cover better.

I do like a dog that can be physically corrected and come bouncing back and I do like a dog that can batter through cover. Is this last thing dependant on a dog being "hard" however ? I have known dogs that I very seldom corrected physically because they were pretty sensitive but some of those dogs were still very good at dealing with cover .......... their "softness" did not seem to affect their hunting. Some dogs are pretty tough physically yet they are "softies" inside their heads. I find this type of dog pretty easy to train.
The springer pup I'm training at present is a bit like this. Fairly tough physically, fairly soft mentally. I rather like this mix.

I do agree that dogs are being bred for trials that are more willing to accept being handled than they once were. I saw this happen in labradors and the more old fashioned types , like me, moaned that the modern labs were becoming too soft........ they were more inclined to want to be handled. More emphasis being put on the trial spaniels handling ability on retrieves may be the cause of "softness" among todays trial spaniels. Maybe we can't have our cake and eat it ??

Personally, I don't think that a dog being willing to be handled affects a dogs nose but it may distract a dog from using it's nose if it is overhandled or if the dog expects correction for failing to be handled in the way the handler desires.
I think dogs noses are like human eyesight , some people have superb eyesight while some need specs, most of us are somewhere in between. Same thing applies to dogs whether trial dogs or not.

Wullie

[James]

I would prefer to form an opinion on more than one example. The modern day spaniel as a whole has gone lighter framed, whiter, faster, softer, more trainable and has less natural ability. I also believe as it said in the article that there are so many hang ups / quirks in these dogs. I have a bitch (about 14 months) by Saturns Spirit and out of an Edgegrove bitch and it is a breath of fresh air and has all the traits I look for in a spaniel. It might not look as tidy as some of the dogs it will compete against but it is a real game finder and has the bravery and determination to get the job done whatever the situation. Training has been a pleasure as I have just moulded what she has wanted to do naturally.

Jonathan

I have been out today shooting partridge over my novice dog who is out of my open bitch (Edgegrove lines) to Saturn Spirit. He's coming on very well and is showing some real power when hunting for a young dog, fingers crossed he keeps improving.

[bellypig]

What a great OP and some really thought provoking subsequent posts.....

I quite agree Rothievale for once I too enjoyed reading the shooting times- I would have loved to have read the original article before it went to press - I have been wanting to use one of his dogs on a bitch I have here as I also really like more traditional looking types. I just can't decide which one although Keanerthanroy may have just swung it for me with an earlier post!!!

As regards soft dogs I have just got a bitch whose sire is Hattonswood Broc and is his absolute double to look at with virtually identical markings and build. She is incredibly soft and is constantly rolling over on her back I have to be really mindful of this on the other side of the coin she is reckless in cover- really heavy brambles and frequently comes out dripping with blood. She's a really tough dog to work out but the drive is there and the talent I just have to be patient and careful.