keanerthanroy wrote:A very interesting read Naj and very informative.
I shoot regularly over my dogs (enough to take the polish off for trialling) but although I would not have a dog that did n't have a good nose or sound gun sense (after time) I do think that being able to handle dogs is a big advantage in the shooting field. I have a dog that always lacked the final gear and happened to be the easiest dog to handle on to something. This dog comes everywhere with me during the shooting season and has put many a runner in the bag that my others would not have. If you shoot a loose bird and your dog is in cover and has n't seen it down and it runs like a stag having a dog that will handle quickly and easily to get on the line is a big bonus. The downside to this is that I've found is that the dogs that handle the best don't go the best and sometimes the discipline of the handling has knocked the full throttle out of the dog.
Like you say trials dictate so much and ultimatley the way they are judged. It is a shame that there are judges out there who do not shoot. How can you judge spaniels if you do not shoot over them? How can it replicate a days walked up shooting if some of the people judging have never been on one? How many people are there out there now running spaniels who do not have a shot gun certificate? These are GUNdogs but so many train them without gun or game and run them in tests etc. and this "success" makes them an authority of the sport!
I personally think working tests have a lot to answer for, which is a shame.
Jonathan
I think that we're reading pretty much off the same page, Jonathan. I agree that a spaniel should be trained to 'handle', but am happy to move forward with the dog in thick cover rather than stand my ground if the dog is struggling to get out. Its years since I saw a working test, & even longer since I ran in one, but I always considered them to be a bit of fun, whereas now they look to be quite a serious business. From what little I know, the spaniel tests appear to be very retrieve orientated. This puts the emphasis on precision handling, which is alright when you know exactly where the dummy lies, but, as you well know, is no use at all when you've a bird down with just a hazy idea of the direction in which it might be, as in the case of many shooting situations. So I have always been careful that I don't stifle self-reliance when teaching 'handling' skills, which practically speaking means that I can get a dog into the area or downwind of the fall over a reasonable distance, depending on cover, with the minimum of handling, & then I pretty much leave it to the dog's initiative, experience & nose to do the rest. As you've highlighted, some dogs 'handle' better than others, & its a wise man that accepts the limitations of the dog & works within them rather than trying to force the dog towards standards it will always struggle to achieve. I'm not really in a position to say much else about the impact of working tests on field trials, but I would have thought that the likes of Oppenshaw & his ilk would have been the ones directing where field trials are heading, & they do shoot over their dogs extensively.
I agree that everyone should aspire to be able to shoot over their dogs, & I would have hoped that any field trial judge would shoot over their own dogs regularly. It takes the expertise & knowledge in handling a dog to another level & provides deeper insight into the whole process. I don't believe that you are the complete handler until you have successfully shot over your own dogs on a regular basis. Forgive me for harping on about Erlandson, but he is a prime example. He was essentially a shooting man who trialed his shooting dogs. He could read a dog or a shooting situation like a book. If you asked him about a particular dog's run he would tell you exactly what the bird was doing & how the dog made contact, how it was shot & how that impacted on the outcome of the retrieve & the dog's performance in completing it. He would as likely tell this to a complete stranger standing next to him, whether he wanted to hear it or not! I have never met anyone as intuitive.
Naj
that is because the boldest pup (i.e. pick of litter)that go onto to be the boldest hunters are being kept by the breeder, or go to the owner of the stud dog..... 
