Article on the state of the modern day springer spaniel

[Polmaise]

She already said she was not a 'natural', and many who are not will never be. even with training.

[trekmoor]

I never had any real problems when shooting over my own dogs. It was just something that I always did. I think the emphasis has to be kept as being training orientated rather than shooting orientated............ in other words miss if you have to but keep the dog steady !

Wullie

[scot-ish]

i was always from a young age, with a gun with me training, my dog working close to me, making a contact flush, i have plenty of time to watch the dog hup, and then decide wether i will mount the gun and shoot, a pheasant is still only 30 yards when the first shot is fired- although i must admit, albeit only one trial (the cocker championship this year) i never seen a bird shot over 20 yards. if i was out shooting, i wouldnt pull the trigger untill a bird was 25 yards away.

Jamie

[Judy]

If you are training for trials you don't want to shoot yourself as you wont ever do that in a trial. I accept that its the complete package, shooting over your own dog, but quite a lot of people get as much pleasure handling the dog without shooting themselves.

And, as the handling side has slipped back into this thread Judging by the number of unruly e-collar wearing dogs I see on shoots no training is required for a picking up dog, however, its really nice to work a reasonably well trained dog, far more satisfying and less stressful for both dog and handler. As Will says though, work with the dog and give it time to do its job once you have it in the right area.

[t jack]

If you are training for trials you don't want to shoot yourself as you wont ever do that in a trial. I accept that its the complete package, shooting over your own dog, but quite a lot of people get as much pleasure handling the dog without shooting themselves.

And, as the handling side has slipped back into this thread Judging by the number of unruly e-collar wearing dogs I see on shoots no training is required for a picking up dog, however, its really nice to work a reasonably well trained dog, far more satisfying and less stressful for both dog and handler. As Will says though, work with the dog and give it time to do its job once you have it in the right area.

I know if I waited for my shooting buddy to come out with me everytime I wanted to shoot over my dog, I wouldn't get a lot shot over them....

[trekmoor]

If you are training for trials you don't want to shoot yourself as you wont ever do that in a trial.

I don't have suicidal tendencies in training or in trials.

Wullie

[WGD]

[Hales Smut]

The modern ESS has been transformed in a dog he should not be. This has nothing to do with modern or old breeding, but only with wrong judging and breeding. The ESS is a roughshooting dog, nothing else. Our ancestors bred him only for that. For retrieving they bred retrievers. He was also not meant to be a dog to brush out bushes stuffed up with
pheasants, wich some even don't enter in these conditions. That's what some made of him, a brush. Instead of a brush, it should be a dog who quaters his ground and has the nose and ability to brake his cast and really lift a bird. What is wrong with a springer that quaters 20/30 meters left and right from the gun. He reaches ground that you can not reach yourself. There is no use polishing your boots. Birds in this area will fly from your own presence.
A springer should HUNT and find game. When out roughshooting with a dog and you shoot something, you walk up with the dog close to the fall and sent the dog from there.
Field trial judges should ALL shoot alot over spaniels to know what they should look for. It's only this way that you learn what to look for in a dog.

[trekmoor]

I have no problems with a spaniel that hunts 20 yards or more out from the handler when pheasants are being hunted but a dog that did this among rabbity ground would probably be flushing rabbits that the handler and maybe the guns couldn't see. I expect my own dogs to range out to 15 -25 yards but I'm not shooting rabbits over them.

I've never trialed a spaniel so I could be very wrong about this but maybe a handler could have the best of both worlds if dogs were allowed and expected by trial judges to range fairly wide when after pheasants but when on rabbity ground the judges could maybe turn a bit of a deaf ear to a lot of extra turn whistles ?

Wullie

[Naj]

I agree with a lot in the last two posts (Hales Smut & Wullie), especially about the distinction between rabbits & pheasants. Since I shoot over ground that holds both, & more of the former, I use a working distance of 15 yards either side. This ticks all the boxes with rabbits, & if a pheasant is contacted gives a comfortable lee-way for the dog to work forward on a moving bird & force a flush. This could well take it out to the 25 or 30 yard mark, especially on late season wild birds, which adding a bit of reaction time & allowing the bird to get into its flight will add another 10 yards or so & take it out to a relatively long shot - most stuff is shot within 25 yards, even on many driven shoots. That's OK but my concern with allowing my dogs to habitually hunt out to 25/30 yards is that if they hit moving stuff you will end up with shots at extreme range, which I am not comfortable with. I guess there is no right & wrong to it, for it all depends on your land, your main quarry species & how competant you are as a shot & what suits your needs.

On the face of it, in trials, where there are two guns to a dog, you could argue that they could range out further. This is OK on open ground like roots & open heathland, but in many woodland situations it would be a great disadvantage to have a dog that hunted wide & needed a lot of whistle to hold it back & keep it in sight. Many of our top handlers also do a lot of shooting over their own dogs & so may well err to the closer rather than wider, especially since it would appear to be the trend in trials. I wouldn't get too hung up about what happens in trials. Its a discipline of its own & you've got to stick with the game if you want to be in it to win it. The progeny of these boot brushers will quite happily take in more ground, & then some, if given half a chance by a shooting man.