Rothievale wrote:An excellent article is being published this week (today I think) in the shooting times about the state of the modern day springer spaniel written by Jeremy Organ, a very interesting reading, alot of excellent points that I agree wholeheartedly on and a few home truths.
So after 12 pages and various views and stories,the article has achieved(on this forum) the intent it was set out to do? 'invoke dialogue'!
But ,is it a true reflection based on what has been discussed on here?
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
Just received and read "the article" , thanks Sue.
I have hardly ever seen more truth in one article. The problem is that many of the "modern" guys don"t realise they are wrong. They truly think that handling and retrieving is a test for a spaniel. Belgian trials are only run in hard woodland cover with little game. Never on white grass, rushes or bracken. By the end of the day 2 to 5 head of game shot for about 12 to 15 dogs. Those who can't find game need ALOT of luck to make a find.
A few years ago Tim Dennehy ( Sprucehill) judged a trial here. After the trial ( off the record ) I asked him his opinion on a dog who ran in the trial. He told me that there was not such a dog available in Ireland. What greater compliment you can get, from a true spanielman.
so in that instance, where 2 to 5 head are shot over 15 dogs. is this trial not just luck?? or are the dogs judged on there quartering on unscented ground?? surely thats a 'test' ??? surely no find means not much scent, and alot of dogs need that scent to step up and see them go on properly.
in the trial ive seen with spaniels, ive not seen a retrieve over 50 metres, in my mind, thats a simple retrieve for any spaniel, and shouldnt need handled, should run a straight line till it scents it, and work the area to find.
I have this same debate with a good friend (re Hales Smut's earlier post this morning) who has been trialling spaniels for over 30 years. He was once an advocate of hunting quality being more important than the retrieving aspect, but now argues that they carry the same weight, even verging towards retrieving being more important. We then get into the same silly argument - If the dog can't find the bird there's nothing to retrieve v. if it can't retrieve it then its a waste of time finding it in the first place - & end up in one of those chicken & egg conundrums that get you nowhere. He does assure me that the standard of handling & quality of dogs (compared with 20 - 30 years ago) is such that competition for top places in trials is so hot that they are only worth entering if you have a top notch dog in all departments ( this guy doesn't consider a placing or COM as anything of merit & is only interested in a first place). I haven't seen a trial in over 20 years (apart from vids of the Championships, & the hunting looks pretty slick in them) but if the hunting quality of the top contenders is pretty equal, then decisions are bound to be weighted by the quality of handling, because that is the only area of 'improvement' left to handlers. As long as this doesn't impinge on hunting quality then I see nothing wrong with that from a shooting perspective, & much to gain if we are getting easier temperaments to work with. Trials have changed over the years and so have spaniels & they will go on changing, just as shooting has changed. How many are fortunate enough to go out alone with gun & dog for a spot of roughshooting? This used to be relatively common when I started & still fairly accessible, but what is often described as roughshooting these days is more like a semi-organised walked-up day. I usually shoot alone, but if I had to base my spaniel work on shooting over them in company, or even beating or picking-up with them again, then I would prefer an easy dog to handle, not a head-case, no matter how hot it hunted.
- 2 to 5 head of game shot. Not all shots are kills, we are lousy shooters. Not all finds are cockbirds. In the flemish part of the country, it's illegal to relaese game. So frequently the shootowner allows 1 cockbird to be shot a dog ( we get are grounds for free) . So 2 to 5 dead cockbirds on the ground is a normal situation. Dogs with a find and no kill, get a retrieve with a "pocketbird". One of the judges keeps a bird in his gamepocket to use when needed.
- Luck ? I am not convinced. Some dogs seem always to have luck and others almost never. I think this is called gamefindingability.
- The dogs that needs game to go at 100%, are the ones we do not want and certainly do not want to breed from. We want a dog that goes at 100% for scent as well as on scent.
- I like the dog that at 5/6 months old touches scent a couple of times and starts hunting strongly. No exposure to game for weeks, ......... Just hunting natural with almost no exposure to game and needing to be with both feet on the brake all the time.
Hales Smut wrote:- 2 to 5 head of game shot. Not all shots are kills, we are lousy shooters. Not all finds are cockbirds. In the flemish part of the country, it's illegal to relaese game. So frequently the shootowner allows 1 cockbird to be shot a dog ( we get are grounds for free) . So 2 to 5 dead cockbirds on the ground is a normal situation. Dogs with a find and no kill, get a retrieve with a "pocketbird". One of the judges keeps a bird in his gamepocket to use when needed.
- Luck ? I am not convinced. Some dogs seem always to have luck and others almost never. I think this is called gamefindingability.
- The dogs that needs game to go at 100%, are the ones we do not want and certainly do not want to breed from. We want a dog that goes at 100% for scent as well as on scent.
- I like the dog that at 5/6 months old touches scent a couple of times and starts hunting strongly. No exposure to game for weeks, ......... Just hunting natural with almost no exposure to game and needing to be with both feet on the brake all the time.
Please please please give me the nudge if you find one!
When organising our trials we are extremely carefull to invite the judges. We only use judges who judge as we think they should. This is a possibilty for a club to have some influence how the selection of the breed is done.
