Show x working gundogs ?

[Alice]

really enjoyed watching that Robert! she certainly showed enthusiasm on her outrun, now just to get her bounding back with em!

[baguio]

I'm sure that there are many show bred dogs out there that can do a bit of work but they will more than likely fall short on stamina, speed and not be very athletic. You have to wonder what their joints and bodies in general will be like when they're 6, 7 or 8 years old having done the job of a working dog when their frame is not built for it? I wouldn't want one in my kennels. Space is too tight and to have to put a 6 or 7 year old dog into retirement because it had arthritis would leave me under dogged with only myself to blame.

Sorry but I can`t agree with the above post. In general show bred dogs have better conformation than working dogs and should therefore last longer and not have the problems associated with poor conformation. The problem with show bred dogs ( again I say in general terms ) is that they have lost the drive for work and I would much rather have a dog that is from completely working stock than have some show blood.

You've just said that you can't agree with my post and then agree with it on lack of drive at least which I have written as speed, stamina and athleticness if that's a word? Secondly please don't try to suggest that a show lab would last longer in the shooting field than a working one due to better conformation? (I'm not aware of decent health tested working dogs having problems due to poor conformation either) They're far too heavy boned to do a days work or even an hours work at the pace most of us require. Sorry but I stand by what I said originally and clearly you do agree despite saying that you don't!

[Tarimoor]

I'm sure that there are many show bred dogs out there that can do a bit of work but they will more than likely fall short on stamina, speed and not be very athletic. You have to wonder what their joints and bodies in general will be like when they're 6, 7 or 8 years old having done the job of a working dog when their frame is not built for it? I wouldn't want one in my kennels. Space is too tight and to have to put a 6 or 7 year old dog into retirement because it had arthritis would leave me under dogged with only myself to blame.

I think the issue is with conformation here, as has been said, and to be fair, I am pretty sure I'm right in saying that not only do more show breeders of Labradors health test for hips and elbows, but they also breed for the correct angulation, something that is often left out of or misunderstood from the working side, where the focus is more on the ability, as in the sense of them being able to mark and use their noses/brains, rather than physical ability. Movement is something that *should* be checked for in the ring, and many veteran dogs are shown well past the age of 6/7, so if their movement isn't right, then the judges shouldn't be placing them, as I understand it.

Good conformation and healthy joints are genetic, although there are also many environmental factors, but no one I know of in the show/working fraternities, would want to breed dogs that weren't sound, I think the main culprits of dogs with poor joints are puppy farmers and byb's who couldn't give a t*ss what they churn out, as long as people pay for it.

[pontbeck]

No,I don't agree and Drive is a mental rather than physical thing.
I wouldn't argue that working dogs could be faster but poor conformation will lead to problems in later life and show dogs usually have better conformation than working dogs.

Bill

[baguio]

I think we're getting slightly confused here. Is the original thread not basically asking about the ability of show crossed with working bred dogs in the field. I don't think that the conformation is the issue. It's more the physical and mental ability of a show bred dog to work in the field. It's clear to me that the show bred working breed dogs don't have the correct build to last the passage of time. They might last the passage of time perfectly well in the show ring but out in the field on a regular basis is something different all together as it is much harder on the joints and frame in general. Not to mention that they would not be able to jump fences/walls etc with anything like the ability of the working dog. One thing that I think we're all agreed on is that the show dog is not in general a good choice for regular shooters ie out every week of the season.

[Naj]

Show people have always defended their dogs against working bred dogs on the grounds of conformation, but the standards were set donkey's years ago, when gundogs were truly dual purpose, & are rarely tested in the field today. Working gundogs have moved on & left the show dogs behind. A 'standard' doesn't stand still when put under the pressure of athletic competition & constantly evolving expectations, it changes over time. Hence, the working cocker is a different breed to its show counterpart, as is the springer. They look & move completely differently. Some working gundogs have their faults - Queen Anne legs etc- but in general, the angulation on most hard driving spaniels has to be good to be effective. When I watch Crufts, what strikes me about most of the gundog breeds is the exagerated, hackneyed gait that seems totally alien in a working gundog, or any working dog, for that matter. If the 'standard' was so good, then natural/competitive selection in the shooting field would ensure that all working bred dogs would conform to it. Which they clearly don't.

Naj

[Tarimoor]

I think we're getting slightly confused here. Is the original thread not basically asking about the ability of show crossed with working bred dogs in the field. I don't think that the conformation is the issue. It's more the physical and mental ability of a show bred dog to work in the field. It's clear to me that the show bred working breed dogs don't have the correct build to last the passage of time. They might last the passage of time perfectly well in the show ring but out in the field on a regular basis is something different all together as it is much harder on the joints and frame in general. Not to mention that they would not be able to jump fences/walls etc with anything like the ability of the working dog. One thing that I think we're all agreed on is that the show dog is not in general a good choice foe regular shooters ie out every week of the season.

Yes, it is about a show x working mix, but your post implied that the conformation of show dogs meant that if they are worked, they would suffer joint problems earlier than a working dog, which I don't think can be correct. A dog with correct conformation, that hasn't got the propensity to develop hip/elbow or other joint problems, won't develop them through working or any other activity. A dog will develop joint problems because it has the propensity to do so, and environmental factors may well exacerbate them. But to suggest show dogs have a higher likelihood of joint problems is, in my view, wrong, as they are not bred for poor conformation that would make them more susceptible to such problems. Hope that makes sense

For what it's worth, I think show dogs certainly don't have the same biddability, generally speaking, as working bred, but I've seen some nice inbetweenies, they wouldn't do well in a show, and they may not win field trials, but they are lovely dogs that have bags of ability, which, if you don't want to win umpteen field trials, might just fit the bill.

[Tarimoor]

Show people have always defended their dogs against working bred dogs on the grounds of conformation, but the standards were set donkey's years ago, when gundogs were truly dual purpose, & are rarely tested in the field today. Working gundogs have moved on & left the show dogs behind. A 'standard' doesn't stand still when put under the pressure of athletic competition & constantly evolving expectations, it changes over time. Hence, the working cocker is a different breed to its show counterpart, as is the springer. They look & move completely differently. Some working gundogs have their faults - Queen Anne legs etc- but in general, the angulation on most hard driving spaniels has to be good to be effective. When I watch Crufts, what strikes me about most of the gundog breeds is the exagerated, hackneyed gait that seems totally alien in a working gundog, or any working dog, for that matter. If the 'standard' was so good, then natural/competitive selection in the shooting field would ensure that all working bred dogs would conform to it. Which they clearly don't.

Naj

I haven't been to crufts yet, but have been to a few shows, not to show my dogs I hasten to add, but selling my wares. The breed standard for me makes a Labrador what it is, if we allow them to evolve, they become something else entirely. What happens in 200, 300 years if we follow that route? Who knows, possiblyl who cares even, but I like my Labradors the way they are, I don't like the extremes, but the middle ground. For what it's worth, looking at historical photographs of working spaniels, I've always thought the working *type* are much closer to the mark than some of the overcoated angulated show spaniels, I am not a fan at all, I'm afraid, of the American Cocker Spaniel, and feel it's just a fashion statement rather than a working dog. Another interesting point is the weight of some show dogs, although many show folk involved with Labs will swear till they are blue in the face that they are fit for function, weight equals condition in the show ring, and a well known and successful dual purpose kennel said to me at one show 'your dogs have to carry excess weight to win at champ show level and above'.

[Naj]

Oh! So you mean to tell me that show breeders haven't been guilty of exaggerating aspects of conformation?

[Tarimoor]

Oh! So you mean to tell me that show breeders haven't been guilty of exaggerating aspects of conformation?

Did you read my post I did say I thought working spaniels were closer to the original mark, and yes, show folk do exaggerate some aspects of the BS, but then do some working folk even know the BS, and are they not capable through exaggerations from ignorance in equal proportion?