Force fetch

[Degalle79]

I have watched and read articles where retrievers have been trained force fetch and just wondered why it seems so popular is the US as opposed to here in uk and Eire, or am I missing something?

[Megsdad]

It's just not British old chap!

[trekmoor]

I first heard of F.F. when it was called " The French Method" in an old book. ( I'd thought it was something kinky so I read it carefully ! ) This retrieve method, done in various ways, is also popular on the continent and in S. Africa.

It is a method best taught to you by a good and very experienced trainer of this method. All I really want to say about it is that if a gundog is properly bred it shouldn't need to be taught in this way and - very importantly - if you start to train a dog in this way then you have to follow through to the completion of the task . Failure to do this will result in a dog that is even more anti-retrieving and possibly anti- trainer too.

The American field trial folk tell me they do it not so much because their dogs don't like retrieving but because it teaches a dog that it has no choice in the matter......if it is told to retrieve then it must retrieve whether it likes the article used or not. Apparently this is needed to win Field Trials in America , especially retriever trials.

Wullie

[Degalle79]

Interesting to note your comment about being bred right, I think I recall reading somewhere that because of the direction lab breeding went in us they lost a bit of their retrieving instinct. Anyway I'll not be trying this method, I find it hard enough to do the basics lol.

[Naj]

It was first written about, in detail, in this country by the late Maurice Hopper in his book 'Spaniel Training for Modern Shooters' (1974), and was referred to as the French method. At the time, it was generally thought that it was a brave move on his part to go public on such a contentious issue. Keith Erlandson touched on it in one of his books & referred readers to Hopper's book as being the definitive work on the practice.

In the US I believe it started through their requirement that pointers & setters should also retrieve. Many were not natural retrievers & so they developed FF. This was obviously a success & the practice was taken up by spaniel & retriever trainers - why risk a problem developing with a natural retriever when you can simply force compliance? Since then, many breeds have been bred more for independence rather than bidibility & this goes counter to what is rquired from a natural retriever, thus making FF more of a neccessity. There is also a belief that if a dog is encouraged/conditioned to retrieve through its own free will, then if push comes to shove & one day it decides it would rather not, there is little that you can do about it. I know of one top pro in this country who has dabbled with it ( I'm sure there will be others), but I wouldn't use the method - there are 'softer' ways of teaching a dog to 'hold' - & I think it would be a backward step if the practice became common place in this country.

Naj

[Allyson]

Sorry but I could not disagree more with the opinion that how a dog is bred has got anything to do with FF training.

There have been countless threads on this forum over the years regarding dogs which will not retrieve, mouth, drop, run off etc with dummies/game.

Most of these dogs have been "purpose bred" for the task for which they have been chosen.

You can teach ANY breed to retrieve without ANY need to utilise the FF. It may not have the flashiness of some, but it can be trained to retrieve anything, from anywhere at anytime in other words a Martini Dog.

There have been, and always will be a)cultural differences in training and b) fads and fashions.

As for giving a dog a choice, well there are thousands of very reliable retrieving dogs in ALL disciplines in ALL breeds whose owners have never felt the need to go down the FF route.

The fact that FF works is not in debate it is, like the use of an e collar, down to your own ethical outlook etc.

[Polmaise]

If we had a FF trained dog American trained retriever by say, Mike Lardy or Chris Atkinson ? next to a non FF trained dog by John Halstead, or Keith Broomfield ? and each in turn were asked to complete a retrieve of the same, How and which would complete with the same or better results?

[Naj]

The end result is surely the same, whichever method is used, a dog that will retrieve to hand on command.

[Polmaise]

An 8 week old puppy does that!
So what are we training for?

[trekmoor]

I'd like to believe that a good British dog and handler would do best if the retrieves were of the "natural" types . American trials seem to work on planted birds or even on birds tossed into the air by helpers.
I doubt very much if a British trained dog would win an American trial but I equally doubt that an American trained dog would win in a British trial. Our two countries expectations of how a retriever should perform seem to be a good bit different. I haven't been to a retriever trial for many years ...... but..... I've got a feeling "the guid raking dug" way of finding a shot bird is no longer in favour in British retriever trials.

Wullie