Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Hepe]

I'm sitting here trying to guess where Naj lives and how he looks. I imagine a wiry small short person with ears poking out a bit from wearing a cap even in his sleep.

Helene

[Stacia]

I think Naj is a woman I have been on another forum and put two and two together.

Jelinga

[Rascal]

I think Naj is a woman I have been on another forum and put two and two together.

And I think you've made five Jelinga....

Rascal

[Stacia]

I think you are right Rascal He certainly sounded like a man, but my reasoning that he was a woman was completely up the creek

Jelinga

[drumkeen gundogs]

Hi I think Naj has gone vulcan on gundog training I am an educated man but I must admit that most of that went right over my head, all I am saying is if something works really well why change it an example, 12 days ago a client from Northern Ireland brought a dog back to me for training Bob was one of my pups from last year and will be 12 months old on the 23rd June, here is a list of Bobs problems, spitting the retrieve in an enclosed area not coming back with the retrieve outdoors , pulling hard on the lead, not sitting not staying , poor recall, outranging when hunting , not steady on dummies etc and frightened of cattle and barking at them, using the regime I use Bob now retrieves and holds and presents , walks to heel on lead sits and stays ( still on lead ) distances of up to 40 yards ( I am still returning to him at moment but next few days he will be called to recall ) sits and stays while I climb gates and fences without lead and is recalled, hunts and Quarters within 5 to 10 yards finds and retrieves tennis balls to hand , comes to recall and is starting to drop to the stop whistle at distances of 5 to 10 yards , is almost steady on dummies etc and finally is no longer frightened and does'nt bark at cattle, he is just starting to learn to walk to heel without lead, Bob is in what I call the fragile stage and still will and is capable of breaking a command but if he does and is put back he sees the command through, when his owner picks Bob up in a few days time he will be shown the regime to carry on and by duck season Bob should be a very steady obedient great gundog as he has a vast and abundant natural ability and talent. so if anyone can put so much into a dog in such a short time using a treat based or any other method clicker ? etc I will conceed and hang up my whistle .
If anyone wants the regime i use I will be pleased to explain it to them in complete detail no problem at all regards to all Pete and Naj great dabate thanks, live long and prosper and please explain that last post to me in English , look forward to it

[Naj]

I'm sitting here trying to guess where Naj lives and how he looks. I imagine a wiry small short person with ears poking out a bit from wearing a cap even in his sleep.

Helene

Nah, you must be confusing me with Pol.

I'm tall & exceedingly handsome, with a body of an Adonis, a razor sharp wit & the incisive mind of a Vulcan, so incisive that it leaves Pete completely flummoxed, OR a cross between Maggie Thatcher & Ursula Undress. I'll leave it to your imagination - much more fun than reality.

[Naj]

Hi I think Naj has gone vulcan on gundog training I am an educated man but I must admit that most of that went right over my head, all I am saying is if something works really well why change it an example, 12 days ago a client from Northern Ireland brought a dog back to me for training Bob was one of my pups from last year and will be 12 months old on the 23rd June, here is a list of Bobs problems, spitting the retrieve in an enclosed area not coming back with the retrieve outdoors , pulling hard on the lead, not sitting not staying , poor recall, outranging when hunting , not steady on dummies etc and frightened of cattle and barking at them, using the regime I use Bob now retrieves and holds and presents , walks to heel on lead sits and stays ( still on lead ) distances of up to 40 yards ( I am still returning to him at moment but next few days he will be called to recall ) sits and stays while I climb gates and fences without lead and is recalled, hunts and Quarters within 5 to 10 yards finds and retrieves tennis balls to hand , comes to recall and is starting to drop to the stop whistle at distances of 5 to 10 yards , is almost steady on dummies etc and finally is no longer frightened and does'nt bark at cattle, he is just starting to learn to walk to heel without lead, Bob is in what I call the fragile stage and still will and is capable of breaking a command but if he does and is put back he sees the command through, when his owner picks Bob up in a few days time he will be shown the regime to carry on and by duck season Bob should be a very steady obedient great gundog as he has a vast and abundant natural ability and talent. so if anyone can put so much into a dog in such a short time using a treat based or any other method clicker ? etc I will conceed and hang up my whistle .
If anyone wants the regime i use I will be pleased to explain it to them in complete detail no problem at all regards to all Pete and Naj great dabate thanks, live long and prosper and please explain that last post to me in English , look forward to it

I agree, Pete, if your methods work & you are happy with them, then why change, especially when you already make a living at it & have time constraints. I'm not here to convert you , & I did mention in my earlier post that for many years I was happy to use traditional methods of training, which obviously work. And work much quicker than positive based methods. You couldn't turn a problem dog around as you described in just 12 days using only 'positives'. But I don't need to.

We appear to have drifted off topic over the use of positive reinforcements - like edible rewards - in training. I know it is not mainstream & the majority of trainers still rely on traditional, compulsive methods, but there is increasing interest in using positives. At least one Labrador has made FTCh after being trained by 'positives', and there are now a few pro gundog trainers that are basing their training regimes on or around positive methods, so other FTChs trained by these methods will follow, I'm sure. With the greatest respect, I would have thought that most pro trainers could have turned a problem dog around in 12 days or so, like you did, using traditional methods - that is their bread & butter business, after all. Now if you had told me that you had done it by only using positive methods, then I really would have been impressed.

Beam me up Scotty. Naj

[drumkeen gundogs]

Hi Naj , thats the whole point why would you want to use a method that is obviously far more time consuming and less effective and as regards top trainers changing their methods which planet are you on today spock , I would actually like to know exactly what you percieve or understand to be traditional / mainstream training techniques ? lets pick one piece of training lets say the stop whistle how would you train your dog to stop and sit on the whistle , please feel free to describe any other methods as well as what you term as conventional , I will be of great interest, as I admit I am ignorant to your other methods described, regards Pete

[Stacia]

I would be very interested to read your regime Drumkeen.

Jelinga

[drumkeen gundogs]

This is my quick run down with the way I have trained Bob over the now last 13 days since his arrival ( This is not from a pup but a two to three week residential with an older dog I only start this regime at 5 to 6 months old in pups ) please look back to see what his problems were, firstly with a dog Bobs age I had to cure was his retrieving as for his owner this was the most distressing problem, taking Bob into a small enclosed area I held Bob firmly kneeling down behind him throw the tennis ball a few yards, after 10 or 15 seconds of calm I gave the command to retrieve and let him go He is so focused on the hunt and retrieve he gets back in double quick time and spits the ball at you thinking that will get you to throw again, what you have to do to cure this problem is still Kneeling pull the dog into you firmly but gently , don't be rough or aggressive or you can end up with a non retriever, open the dogs mouth put the ball back in all the time I say in a firm voice hold Bob , they do try to spit it but you have to hold their body and heads in such away that they can't , once they hold , start tickling the dog under their armpit and praising them, after 10 to 15 seconds take the ball and praise them again , repeat the proceedure 3 or 4 times don't keep doing it over and over again have patience do the training for a few minutes four or five times a day, with Bob it took 3 sessions on the first evening and the following day first retrieve he held and we built from there, sometimes you can try a different thing for the dog to retrieve rolled up socks etc it does,nt matter what they retrieve as long as the hold remember patience , and consistancy will cure all , dont become angry or aggressive / frustrated or the dog will sense this and not relax.
Pulling on the lead, you need a slip lead , put the dog on the lead start to walk keep walking give them some slack and yank back with some force ( use common sense ) give positive command "heel" , keep doing this and the dog will learn your not going to tolerate them pulling I find most dogs learn within 10 to 15 minutes. I must mention now that the most important thing to remember with any training is what I call the two sides of the coin which means giving a command has to be given in a firm commanding voice but never forget that once the dog starts doing or has done what you ask change your voice to praise , alot of people forget to praise, that with your body language is how the dog learns when its doing it right from wrong.
This is now were the training becomes linked like stepping stones or building a house from the foundations up , once Bob was walking to heel the regime kicks in , so putting the dog on the lead we go for a walk where there are no distractions etc every 30 yards ask the dog to sit ( I use 3 commands voice/ hand signal which is one finger and stop whistle, again 20 minute sessions 3 4 5 times a day ( dont forget the praise ) as quick as the dog learns once sitting well you move onto staying , always train on the lead the lead is control, so now we are at walk to heel / sit now mostly using the stop whistle and then onto stay , hand signal flat hand firm voice stay, drop the lead step away a yard or two if the dog stays step back in and praise big style, if they move pick them up by the scruff and reposition them and start again, as the sessions go on you will be able to go greater distances, the thing to remember is the dog relaxes as time goes on as it thinks your always coming back and distance does'nt matter success and confidence is everything, sometimes in early sessions I have had to secure the lead to a fence post to begin with 5 to 6 month old pups, so now we are cementing the walk to heel / sit & stay all the time with bob I was still improving and concentrating his retrieves and have moved from the enclosed to a yard and finally onto the lane where we walk to heel, so now I intoduce the retrieving into the walk to heel / sit & stay , walk 30 yards blow to stop on the whistle , give the stay command walk away by now 30 yards return praise pick up lead and walk to heel 30 yards and repeat , return praise pick up lead walk 10 yards blow to stop ( sit ) throw tennis ball 5 or 6 yards down lane , turn around walk back way you came 5 or 6 yards blow to stop take off lead stand between dog and retrieve ( incase they run in wait a few seconds give command for retrieve , enthusiastic encourage back with ball , big big praise , now you have a memory retrive added to your regime of walk to heel / sit / stay and retrieve and you are beginning the early proceedure and training of the stop whistle and walking to heel without the lead as well as recall . thats all for now dogs to train pups to feed and pheasants to feed.
Regards Pete will explain and add more later