Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Nette]

Very interesting thread

[cornishman]

The animal you are working with has simple needs and instincts , its humans who like to over complicate things , too much theory not enough doing

[Wendy M]

If you're giving a dog treats when training heelwork, do you not find that the dog pulls a bit too far forward and sort of 'curls in' towards you in front of you, looking for the next reward? I know watching you can be good, but you need the dog in the right place and to progress to looking forwards 'marking' anything in front of you.

That's why I use a clicker. You click for the correct position - then feed. The dog learns it is only gets a click for being in the correct "heel" position.

Wendy

[Wendy M]

The animal you are working with has simple needs and instincts , its humans who like to over complicate things , too much theory not enough doing

I don't see that rewarding a dog so that it is more likely to repeat what is was rewarded for is complicated!

Wendy

[Naj]

Having tried to understand these different methods by the descriptions written it has become clear that if its difficult for a fairly educated human being to grasp it must be extremely hard for a dog to work out what is required and expected of them and as other members have pointed out and I must ask the same questions what sort of treats do you use, what if the dog gets bored with them what if the dogs not hungry do you have to keep the dog hungry , I can see it may work if the pup is yours and knows nothing other than this but I can't imagine how many years it would take to train the dog for the shooting field, another point is lets face it when you wean off the treats arn't you back to good old praise and love and as I mentioned earlier it seems like teaching a dog something you have to teach again, wendy and Naj both said that praise and love was a treat but its more and above a treat that only works on the stomach its a bond an understanding a connection of trust and confidence and love between the owner and dog , as mentined earlier humans tend to humanise dogs in my work with general obedience clients the amount of people I see who are the submissive partner of the dog is amazing , I have had people actually get upset during a 1 hour session because the dog bonds with me and ignores the owner simply because the dog sees me as the dominant partner, simply through body language and attitude, we are talking here about gundogs but in general an unruly badly behaved dog is a bloody nightmare and can ruin family life, my final point on this subject is A GUN DOG IS NEVER FULLY TRAINED my dogs are well trained extremely obedient dogs but when shooting season comes around and progresses we all notice an extra yard or two creeping in on the stop whistle the odd run in etc etc straight away I put in a few training sessions even while shooting I correct the behaviour with these other methods of treats if you have weaned off treats what do you do then ?
I will finish my training regime explanation for anyone interested very best wishes Pete ps final conclusion as humans we invent something perfect it then try to think of ways to replace it its all very interesting but usually a waste of time .

"... final conclusion as humans we invent something perfect it then try to think of ways to replace it its all very interesting but usually a waste of time. What, like the abolition of slavery?

So, that's it, Pete? You can't get your head around it after reading a few posts, so it must be a waste of time. I would guess that I've been training & shooting over gundogs for a good few years longer than you, using the same methods as you do, & its taken me 15 years to turn around my thinking, plus a huge leap of faith, so I'm not surprised that you wonder why anyone would bother. And as you have found, when you do start looking into it, it promises much but throws out more questions than answers. So it is much easier to stay in your comfort zone. Perhaps I could explain it best by asking you the same question (purely rhetorical), why do you enjoy training dogs by dragging them about by the scruff & jerking them on a lead? It's a simple matter of philosophy. I figured out that the pack leadership model was flawed long before it become commonly recognised, or scientifically proven, for that matter. Logically, this took away the moral justification for correcting a dog by traditional means ..."because I was the pack leader & that's what a pack leader would do". About the same time I learnt that dog trainers from other disciplines were using a methodolgy based upon the way that dogs naturally learn to train their dogs, & I've been working on how to apply it to gundog training ever since. So, in a nutshell, I no longer wish to train a dog through (effectively) intimidation, or to have it respond to me because it is 'scared' of the consequences if it doesn't. I apologise for the emotive words but the dog is performing under a threat of some degree, depending upon the trainer. As you say, the whole process is based upon submission & dominance, which perhaps squeezes the notion of a bond of trust, confidence & love somewhat. This is 'spare the rod ...' territory. I know that you sort out problem dogs, but dogs don't end up a 'bloody nightmare to live with' because they have been trained with treats or lack love from their owners, they end up like this because the owners have failed in their responsibility to set rules, boundaries & limitations in how they expect the dog to behave. And there appears to be a general assumption that if you train positively you just become a walking food bucket with no respect from the dog &/or your dog becomes an automaton that has a cold & impersonal relationship with the handler. In fact, you have a far better relationship because your dog is actually working with you to work out what is required, without all the submissive groveling - a learned behaviour brought about through the dominance model. Any one who saw Phillipa whats-her-name doing the Gundog demo at Crufts would surely be impressed about how keen & enthusiastic the dogs were. And they looked like 'proper' gundogs. And she has made a FTCh up by these methods, which speaks for itself.

I do think that the 'positive training' industry has not helped itself. The 'industry' is steeped in jargon & buzz words, which immediately makes the process inaccessible to those who haven't followed the course. And then the experts appear more interested in arguing over technicalities rather than practical application. And any open debate, like this one, ends up polarising around clickers & food (and I don't use food rewards for doing all the kennel/steadiness stuff I outlined earlier, that was the whole point - using environmental triggers.) Clickers & rewards & place-mats & target sticks aren't the point, the point is the underlying methodology on how dogs learn, & how to manipulate that knowledge to best train the dog. Which raises a major problem of 'belief' for those who have been brought up in the traditional, dominance based style of dog training. When you know how difficult it has been & how much shaking, jerking, cussing & swearing it has taken just to get your dog trained not to chase a hare or to be staedy to retrieve, it seems unbelievable that somebody might have done this simply by manipulating rewards.

Naj

[suerey]

I wholeheartedly agree with everything Naj says in his/her last post! You don't do 1-to-1 taining somewhere near the south coast do you?

[Judy]

Well, I've read through Pete's posts again and, apart from the jerk back in heel work, I see no punishment regime, far from it. To me you guys are all singing from virtually the same hymn sheet, it's just that some seem to complicate a simple task by using additional equipment which generally speaking isn't needed. I'm sure there are several people on here who have turned out numerous perfectly adequate shooting dogs without using a dummy launcher, clicker, placemat, food, cones or any other invention. If it floats your boat use it if it doesn't then time patience and skill will also work. I suspect there are few people on here who would willingly punish a dog for not understanding what was required of it although there will always be some.

As somebody once said to me, " I used to think it was the training, then I thought it was the breeding of the dog, now I'm convinced it's the whole way you live with the dog which matters"

[beth.james]

So in practical terms, Naj, how do you train? I like your philosophy but am struggling to get an idea of how you actually go about it. Wendy seems to rely on clickers and mats etc, which, no offence at all, but I really have no experience with and seems a bit too far for me, but that's me.

You don't seem to rely on food rewards greatly but more of reward based on what you know the dog likes? Am I right? So, you 'reward' good behaviour and ignore or calmly rectify the bad? Sorry if I'm sounding a bit dull, I'm just trying to get a grasp of how your methods work practically speaking. If so, this is a very similar way to how I work, just that the 'rewards' are never edible. If the dog does right, it gets 'told' so in such a way that it understands whether it be a fuss, praise or, in the right circumstances, a retrieve. If the dog does wrong, there's no rollocking/shaking etc, just a calm, reassuring presence putting them back on the right path.

I think everyone has to admit that at one time or another we'll all get frustrated with our dogs for one reason or another and react in a way that we know in our heads is not condusive to good training but at that point we have to take a deep breath and get back on track or finish the training and go out again with a fresh head. If we carry on with that attitude the dog will either crumble on the spot and refuse to co-operate any further for fear of further retribution or you've got a dog that will work for you purely through 'fear' so to speak.

edited to say - well said Judy

[drumkeen gundogs]

ok

[Judy]

OK folks, no pistols at dawn! Pete, Naj has been on here a while now and has often offered advice on curing problems doing it " his way" and it makes for interesting reading.

We all do what works for us with our particular dogs don't we, every dog is different and every handler / trainer. As long as everybody in the partnership is happy then there's nothing wrong with the method as long as it gets the results we want.