Anxiety on Delivery

[Wozzy]

I want to try and correct a problem I created when my dogs was young. Having never had a gundog before, I made some major mistakes, one of them being I got angry and frustrated when my dog wouldnt bring the dummy back. This has resulted in chomping and hard mouth on his return. I know the dog doesnt have a natural hard mouth because when there is no pressure, he carries things perfectly. Yesterday he pegged a woodpigeon that was on it's last legs. I took it off him and threw it over the fence. Today we walked the same route and he remembered the pigeon, retrieved it and brought it back to me without me asking him to do so. He had the pigeon positioned well in his mouth, carried it with a soft mouth, there was no chomping and he held on to it whilst I praised him, gave him a bit of a fuss and then took it from him. This was all very different to when I ask him for a retrieve.

Unfortunately, he isnt a mentally robust dog and I now realise nearly 6 years down the line that the smallest of errors on my part result in a very anxious dog. My question is, how do I take the pressure off him so that I get these soft mouthed, relaxed retrieves each time? I've tried turning sideways on to him so i'm not directly looking at him, fussing him when he returns (he avoids the fuss) and walking off whilst encouraging him to walk to heel but I still get the chomping and the dropping of the dummy if I dont take it off him immediately. It seems as soon as I 'ask' for a retrieve then he immediately feels the pressure. We've also done backchaining the retrieve in obedience classes but he still chomps the item.

Is it a case of going back to basics completely and totally changing what happens when he arrives back to me? Almost like an overhaul of the relationship at that point...

[Wendy M]

Take me through the process that you used for backchaining Wozzy....

Wendy

[vicky payne]

The first of the David Lisset DVD's has a section on getting a nice delivery. He strokes their chests and their ears and seems to half hypnotise them until they think bringing him stuff is the most pleasant and relaxing experience ever! I'm sure other trainers do this too, I just know it's on his DVD.

[Allyson]

I want to try and correct a problem I created when my dogs was young. Having never had a gundog before, I made some major mistakes, one of them being I got angry and frustrated when my dog wouldnt bring the dummy back. This has resulted in chomping and hard mouth on his return. I know the dog doesnt have a natural hard mouth because when there is no pressure, he carries things perfectly. Yesterday he pegged a woodpigeon that was on it's last legs. I took it off him and threw it over the fence. Today we walked the same route and he remembered the pigeon, retrieved it and brought it back to me without me asking him to do so. He had the pigeon positioned well in his mouth, carried it with a soft mouth, there was no chomping and he held on to it whilst I praised him, gave him a bit of a fuss and then took it from him. This was all very different to when I ask him for a retrieve.

Unfortunately, he isnt a mentally robust dog and I now realise nearly 6 years down the line that the smallest of errors on my part result in a very anxious dog. My question is, how do I take the pressure off him so that I get these soft mouthed, relaxed retrieves each time? I've tried turning sideways on to him so i'm not directly looking at him, fussing him when he returns (he avoids the fuss) and walking off whilst encouraging him to walk to heel but I still get the chomping and the dropping of the dummy if I dont take it off him immediately. It seems as soon as I 'ask' for a retrieve then he immediately feels the pressure. We've also done backchaining the retrieve in obedience classes but he still chomps the item.

Is it a case of going back to basics completely and totally changing what happens when he arrives back to me? Almost like an overhaul of the relationship at that point...

Remedial training is the most difficult form of training but it can be done. And yes I would personally say that it is a relationship issue as the dog, obedient to the laws of learning, will ALWAYS default to its first learning experiences and you inadvertently classically conditioned your dog to have a negative experience with this exercise.

We see this in ALL disciplines that require a retrieve, no matter the "object" and it is a result of conflict.

Thus you would need (IMHO) to think very carefully how you first trained it and then train it again using AFAIP nothing that you originally did ie if you trained it from the stand, start from the sit (you that is not the dog).

If you trained a "present" then train to the hand.

If you used a particular command, alter it.

If you used a particular object, avoid it at all costs.

If you backchained it, depending on the way you started it and steps you may even have to do it a different way altogether, which Dick Staal does.

That is the way I would approach it (and have done with some clients) and it has worked provided a) they take enough time and b) they do not default into their previous bad habits

[Wozzy]

Take me through the process that you used for backchaining Wozzy....

Wendy

Since he has no issue with taking an item from me, we started with me sitting down and leaning back against the chair, dog sat between my legs. I then asked him to hold the item and using a clicker, rewarded him only when he had stopped chomping. When doing gundog stuff, I never ask for a formal retrieve, as long as it's to hand i'm happy with that. I only ever backchained the formal retrieve BTW.

I will work on some of the stuff Allyson mentioned tonight. I'll sit on the floor in the house and use a cuddly toy or something. I know he is happy with this because he always greets me with a pillow, blanket or toy in his mouth which he holds beautifully while I fuss him and then gently take it from him - a far cry from how I handle it on the fields

Just a quick question - would I use the clicker for starting over again? When I use a clicker he does get quite wound up trying to guess what i'm going to ask him to do and he starts doing all these behaviours he's been taught so i'm thinking it's best to leave the clicker and treats out to try and keep it relaxed by sticking to soft praise...

[Wendy M]

How about starting with an item on the floor (or even in a container) between your feet and clicking him the instant that he picks it up (before he has a chance of chomping down.)

The sound of the click should mean that he will drop it again immediately to get the treat. Repeat so that he know the game is Pickup - Click/treat.

Then change to clicking for the drop into the container or to the small space between your feet and repeat, so Pickup from container - Drop into container - Click/treat.

Then place the item outside of the container, or just outside the small space between your feet and click for the return of the item to the container. Pickup from outside container - Drop into container - Click/treat

Just as he is dropping the dummy introduce your "drop" cue (might be better to change it from what you were using previously)
Just as he is about to pickup the item introduce your "fetch" cue (again might be better to change it from what you were using previously)

Then slowly get him used to your hands being near as he drops the dummy into the container.

Place your hands over the top of the container so that as the item is dropped it falls into your hands.

Slowly fade away the container (if using) (easier if you are sitting on a chair with space underneath to slide the container away) so that the item is dropped into your hands.

The you can bring back in your "hold" training so that you end up holding the item together and click for a release on your "drop" cue.

Then you will need to generalise the behaviour to different retrieve articles, you being in a different position (i.e. standing rather than sitting) and different places.

Then adding distance to the retrieve.

Here is a link to the thread where I take the forum through my endevours into this method and a video of me and my dog Fern at the dropping back into the container stage at the bottom of page 7.

Wendy

[Wozzy]

Thanks for that info Wendy, that really is going back to basics, we never backchained that far! Looks like it's going to be a lot of work but lets see what happens.

[Wendy M]

Oops forgot to add the link at the bottom!

Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13114&hilit

I just wonder if by going right back to the beginning where he has to pickup and immediately drop to get his click/treat it would
1. get rid of any anxiety,
2. give him less opportunity to chomp down if he is picking up to immediately drop,
and 3. by using a container there is a definite place for the dummy to belong right from the start.

Wendy

[Naj]

Is it just chewing on dummies or has it been damaging game retrieves? If it doesn't damage game then I wouldn't be unduly worried about what it did with dummies. Am I right in thinking it's now 6 years old?

Naj

[Wozzy]

Yes, he is approaching 6.

We havent done much work on game because he is just a pet, generally he doesnt chomp game but will drop it short of me and start nudging it about.

I tried what Wendy suggested last night with a cuddly toy. He picked it up, sat down without me asking and held it very nicely until I took it from him - no chomping and no anxiety. I started off by clicking him as soon as he picked it up but he took the steps further himself.