3 way split?

[Bryn]

of course drive is inherited otherwise we wouldn't breed from ftch's. I think you can alter the level if drive by the way you train it; If a dog has 3 x 20 min training sessions a day I think it would be a safe to say it would be a little more hard going than a dog that's given long walks/training sessions.

No. You cannot train drive into a dog. I think you are confusing drive with stamina.

maybe not but I reckon you can retard or suppress it

[DesO'Neile]

I don't believe that in essense there is much difference between the physical abilities of trial and working dogs. To me it is much more about the conditioning that the trial dog goes through to be ready for competition. There are however a lot of breeders of trial dogs and thereas a lot of them breed for themselves primarily they are bound to try to breed a dog that fits the current fashion trend. The current fashion trend is for a fast, fast actioned preferably white springer. The idea that somebody today would breed a dog like Sunstar Snoopy, intentionally, is nearly unthinkable and even if they did breed one it might be culled or sold to a working home. Obviously the more small fast dogs that are bred the higher porportion of these there will be in the gene pool and unless somebody starts to win with big dogs again the snowball will increase in size and impetus and like Topsy the percentage will grow and grow.
Where it is more difficult to see the change is in temperament. When Erlandson was in his heighday the springer trials were run round the outskirts of the shoots and it wasn't all that uncommon to run for twenty to twenty five minutes to get your find, unless of course the dog was crap and it would be pulled up after ten. The resultant retrieve would be in a sparsely populated area and there wouldn't be that much difficulty completing it unhindered. Nowadays the trials appear to be run in more densely populated areas and you need a dog that can make it's retrieve maybe through an area heavily populated by live, relatively inexperienced birds. I'm convinced that some of the very best hard hunting springers of yester year would kill half a dozen poults on the way out, and the same number on the way back. fair play to those who can breed or train a dog to handle these conditions. My question would be what possible use is there really for a dog that can handle the conditions where you could kick up a shed load of birds with your feet? I want a bramble basher!

[Naj]

The purpose of field trials is to find the best "hunting dog" in the bunch. So they should be one and the same, things have changed sadly, but generally they are cut from the same cloth. Unfortunately the more driven dogs eliminate themselves early on and you're left with plodders that are well mannered. Generally though, the cream rises to the top.

In the UK I don't believe that 'plodders' would stand the pace of competition. Whether our existing system finds the 'best hunting dog in the bunch' is a moot point.

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

In the UK I don't believe that 'plodders' would stand the pace of competition. Whether our existing system finds the 'best hunting dog in the bunch' is a moot point.

Naj

sadly they do.

[trekmoor]

I have seen a few HPR's (none of them G.S.P.'s) that were plodders win trials. They come into their own in conditions suited to kicking up birds with your feet. They don't go fast enough or far enough to get into trouble ! Then there are the dogs that are only really good on their own sort of ground. Some very hard going dogs on a grouse moor would need an awful lot of controlling among game crops or woodlands and would lose marks.

I think I could win a woodlands or thick cover cover trial with Rosie the vizsla even if game was very scarce but if that trial moved out onto stubbles she wouldn't "go" worth a wet fart.

I believe you cannot put drive into a dog that hasn't got it to give but you can inhibit a dog from using it's drive and maybe end up with a plug.

Wullie

[Qest12]

I have seen a few HPR's (none of them G.S.P.'s) that were plodders win trials

Were any of them wire-haired? I go to a gun dog club and the wire-haired HPRs seem to be somewhat half arsed compared to their smooth coated couterparts who seem brighter and a bit more up for it.

[trekmoor]

Sorry if I am knocking back anyone's breed here but the worst trial winner I saw was a weimaraner. Wirie's used to have a few plodders in their ranks and vizslas had a lot.

Out on a shooting day the ploddiest dog I saw was a Spinone. It could not have caught a snail with a bunion ! The dogs owner had made the mistake of taking the dog to work for grouse on a moor . It's owner was proud that it had "hunted all day." Any dog could have with that sort of range and pace. Grouse moors are not the place to show off dogs lacking in range and pace, That dog found not a single bird all day. The birds on the moor were sparse and widely scattered.

In order for it to get a retrieve , my brittany had to find a bird , point it, flush it and then let the spinone retrieve it. Spinones and grouse moors are not a good combination, that breed was never meant for that kind of hunting. Another Italian breed, the Bracco, has a mixture of very good going dogs and some plodders. I haven't seen them often enough to know if the plodders among them simply haven't had enough opportunity given to them by their owners to make them want to "go."

G.S.P.'s did have some plodders among them but most of them were "goers" that their owners could not control !
All sorts of utterly ridiculous crap was said about this breed by a few of it's early enthusiasts. Among the things said was that they were excellent water dogs because they had webbing between their toes ! Also that they were excellent dogs in cold weather and water because the breed had a blood temperature that was two degrees higher than other breeds ! Twenty+ years ago a great many G.S.P.s and other HPR breeds were hard mouthed. This has improved but by how much I could not say.

I bought my first HPR , a Brittany, partly because I had never even seen one of that breed in the flesh. It was a case of " Better the devil you don't know than the ones that you do !"

Wullie

[andyshaw]

However comparing marathon and sprinters is a bit misleading, they have fundamental differences in their muscle fibres which determines which event they are best at, the type and proportion of these is formed during developement of the foetus and determined to a certain large extent by genetics.

What utter tosh. They don’t have fundamental differences in muscle fibres from birth; they haven’t done any physical activity to establish them. Short bursts of high weight/intensity exercise will eventually give you fast-twitch muscle fibres, which in turn, gives you lots of strength and power in short bursts. Long sessions of low intensity exercise (e.g. hill running) will eventually give you slow-twitch muscle fibres- which in turn give you lots of stamina and endurance.

You can alter muscle twitch fibres, although not entirely, although build is something relatively fixed. I could never be a body builder, my structure would not take it, but a climber or marathon runner maybe? but i think what Bryn is getting at is if you want a marathon running dog (which is the all day-er) then why breed from the sprinter (which is the trialing dog). Surely if you believe the Nature side of the whole nature vs nature, you wouldnt breed from a sprinter to nurture it into a marathon-er, this is counter productive, unless the other traits aquired outdo the incorrect build. Really what you would want is a proven all day going dog, this would then requrie a means to Prove it, which would further require trials to suit what dog you would want.

For example, trials held on grouse moors with very little birds, then a trial for compact ground etc etc etc. I think this all ends up in the arguement about trialing, and how realistic it is to the general sport.

Out of interest does anyone know how they decide how long trials should last?

[Springfield Pointers]

I agree with Wullie. Out here we deal with very tough conditions for pointing breeds, GSP's are the choice for many roughshooters for good reason, EP's a close second and preferred by those hunting bigger sky. I do not believe that trialling dogs contribute negatively to genetics of bird dogs. Kennel blindness and shortsighted judges who favour manners over ability and elevate mediocrity above excellence, and cannot separate the two, are far more of a problem than a few unfit trial dogs.
Those who are confusing "muscle fibre" types in trial dogs and hunting dogs are, in my opinion, looking for problems where there are none. The issue is primarily drive, and secondly (and subsequently) fitness. Breed for drive and the rest will follow.

[Bryn]

I think the practicality of giving all the dogs entered in the trial as fair a run as possible run determines how long each one gets. Hence the limited run times. On that basis I reckon even giving just the finalists a run of say a couple of hours would be unworkable.

Anyway as said trialing isn't really my bag and by the time this might become an issue I'll be feeding the worms. Just that after a lifetimes breeding pedigree cattle and purebred sheep and seeing quite a few breeds ruined to the point of endangerment, I thought it something folk might like to keep an eye on.