3 way split?

[James]

Have I missed something here, muscle build up is very much dependent on how much and what type of exercise each dog gets. Not its breeding or if its trialed or not. That in its self again has no bearing on weather the dog will be better for trialing or beating, just that the owner keeps the dog in the condition fit for working and not just hopes it gets through the day.

[Qest12]

Have I missed something here, muscle build up is very much dependent on how much and what type of exercise each dog gets. Not its breeding or if its trialed or not. That in its self again has no bearing on weather the dog will be better for trialing or beating, just that the owner keeps the dog in the condition fit for working and not just hopes it gets through the day.

That is right. I just think that trial dogs are a bit more muscular due to the way they are exercised.

[pontbeck]

What on earth are you going on about? I said differences in exercise intensity and length can increase or decrease differences in muscle fibre types (fast-twitch slow-twitch) I think trail dogs contain more fast-twitch fibres hence the more athletic appearance.?

and I think I have tried to state politely, as have others, that your position is a load of bollocks.

If it’s bollocks why are dogs of the same litter more muscular/athletic looking then others that may have gone to more of a pet home.
Are you wanting to take this out of the forum? You wouldnt speak like this to my face.....

That response is not acceptable, be careful of future posts or you status will be in question

Bill

[James]

Have I missed something here, muscle build up is very much dependent on how much and what type of exercise each dog gets. Not its breeding or if its trialed or not. That in its self again has no bearing on weather the dog will be better for trialing or beating, just that the owner keeps the dog in the condition fit for working and not just hopes it gets through the day.

That is right. I just think that trial dogs are a bit more muscular due to the way they are exercised.

Well I dont agree 100%, what I would say is that those that trial do keep their dogs in perfect condition to give them everychance to make the most of their runs to win. I trial, and because of this ALL my dogs are in tip top condition no matter what their job is. I have a few dogs that only pick up and never trial but they get the same level of training and exercise as the others.
There are many who work their dogs 4 or 5 times a week and keep up with the training between seasons, so like mine look to be in great nick. Then you get those that do sod all between seasons and expect the dogs to get fit as they work.

[Judy]

Cool it guys!

Talking retrievers, I think we have all seen dogs at trials that have such poor conformation they would be incapable of working a whole day, they can managed the walking and the two or three retrieves they may get in a trial day but they would struggle to manage a long and successful working life. Yes they are fine when young because the desire to work drives them on but the body will break down sooner than others. In that case I would prefer a dog without trial breeding rather than one badly put together which had won any number of trials.

To me the whole dog matters, not the ability to win a competition. I want my dogs to work all day and for a fair few years before they become too stiff and sore after a day out.

[Hepe]

I have two dogs that I am gearing and trying to train towards trials – and two dogs that are my shooting/beating/picking up dogs.
Both sets get trained different, just like a sprinter would train different than a marathon runner.
Trial dog is brought out for and hunted for short period of time and brought back to heal, or on the lead. He is conditioned to hunt for 10, 20 or 30 minutes at top rate, missing nothing and takes commands first time.
Shooting dog is hunting all day, sometimes not getting a flush for hours, but plods along at his on pace as he expects to be on the hills for at least 5 hours and if they are more than 15 yards away seem deaf to the whistle.

Why would ye want a pup from trial stock – because the parents have proved that they are trainable, and hopefully the pups will be trainable, to what standard and to do what type of shooting is up to the owner.

Edited to say ....looking forward to hearing the responses though !!

This is my experience too, limited at it is. Before trialling i did some change in training based on advice here and from training days with UK trial judges. I did need a few weeks to get that extra gear but since the breeding was there not impossible at all. Now we are plodding along again, i got this furry cute charming lady which i mostly do retriever training with but i feel safe that with some weeks of conditioning with short bursts of field traiing on gamey ground will bring back the lean and mean hunting machine. Ideally i suppose you want to condition your pup from start for trials and then retire them to a life of working as a gundog but i only got this wee one for now so she have to be dual purpose.

Helene

[Bryn]

Cool it guys!

Talking retrievers, I think we have all seen dogs at trials that have such poor conformation they would be incapable of working a whole day, they can managed the walking and the two or three retrieves they may get in a trial day but they would struggle to manage a long and successful working life. Yes they are fine when young because the desire to work drives them on but the body will break down sooner than others. In that case I would prefer a dog without trial breeding rather than one badly put together which had won any number of trials.

To me the whole dog matters, not the ability to win a competition. I want my dogs to work all day and for a fair few years before they become too stiff and sore after a day out.

could really do with a 'like' button.

One of the labs in the pictures qest12 linked to looked in magnificent condition but his back end was

[Springfield Pointers]

If it’s bollocks why are dogs of the same litter more muscular/athletic looking then others that may have gone to more of a pet home:

different exposure to exercise.

[Naj]

Conditioning a trial's dog is as much about conditioning the mind as conditioning the body. You can have equally fit trial & working dogs (and many purely working dogs are arguably physically fitter than a lot of trial dogs) but any difference between the two generally lies in the sharpness of response & mind-set & attention to detail, which, again, comes from careful management. Different disciplines require different (trained) dogs, but they can all come from the same litter &/or share the same bloodlines, so as others have pointed out, the breeds can't be splitting genetically into specialist strains, as was the question raised in the op..

Whether you develop a young dog using short hunts or longer ones makes no difference. When you first cast it off to hunt it doesn't worry over whether it is in a trial or just hunting for kicks, all it wants to do is GO, and GO quickly. If there is any slowing down in a young dog it will be much later in the hunt, not at the beginning.

Naj

[crackerd]

One of the labs in the pictures qest12 linked to looked in magnificent condition but his back end was

What's wrong with their rear ends?

...trial dogs are a bit more muscular due to the way they are exercised.

Some rather more muscular than others, and in novel ways -



ever seen the "hackle muscles" up with glee on a retrieve?

Carry on, Qest, you're hitting some of the right buttons.

MG