Training in drive?

[Springfield Pointers]

Managing arousal. And I think what the Op was writing about originally was compounding drive and arousal. Consciously using methods to manage arousal is I believe key to optimum performance.

My Wife tells me that her efforts in managing my arousal have absolutely nothing to do with my drive. Or maybe I just get too excited when she gets out the toys.

[welsh]

I am no more dismissing terminology than you are? SP used enthusiasm, you used excited I use the word drive, as that is the word used in the circles where the method was developed, adopted and utilised.

A word that was appropriated from theories of animal behaviour developed by qualified scientists based on empirical observation, and then used incorrectly to postulate a folk theory of behaviour used to promote a certain training method. In short, I dismiss your terminology with good cause. It is more accurate to say that the dog is excited, for the reason that Ed Bailey explains. Talking about "drive," as this thread amply demonstrates, serves only to confuse matters and prevent people from actually communicating.

A bit like training a command and then proofing under more and more distraction. Training a command and then increasing the dogs speed of response due to increasing the level of it's excitement, Would you not see that as a good implication?

You are missing the point entirely. We are indeed training the dog under increasing levels of distraction and excitement. That's how the job gets done.

You seem to be looking for validation of a theory you're committed to. My point is that theories don't train dogs. Are you able to propose a faster method of steadying a dog to wing and shot?

"We train on pigeons here, and when the dog is steady to wing and shot, it gets the reward of retrieving the shot bird. Are we "training in drive?" Or are we just training the dog?" My question exactly!

My question was rhetorical. The answer is that we are simply training the dog in front of us.

[Luked]

Lesson learnt by me, keep my mouth firmly shut in future.

For the record, I don't think anyone is asking you to "keep your mouth shut in future" But with all due respect, you asked a question and it was answered (on a few occasions by more than one person), what you failed to appreciate or acknowledge was the answer.

I am no more dismissing terminology than you are? SP used enthusiasm, you used excited I use the word drive

Reference is wrong again. Your use of the word drive is incorrect!

The implications in my eyes is if you find that you get a faster reaction time and response when the dog is in the state when on game, would it not be good if you could get that same response and reaction time when you are not on game? In regard to to having to calm the dog to do productive training, surely a method that meant that the level of "the state" that the dog was in was in the hands of the trainer, would that not be a good thing?

Are we hypnotising dogs or what? Has the term "in drive" now become "the state" - My feeling is that you are complicating and extremely simple issue.

They are the same wullie

For goodness sake!! If you understand this (or claim to?) how is it that you are so confused about this issue. And no !! Drive and Excitement/Enthusiasm ARE NOT the same thing. If someone says he has a dog that "is very driven" to most people that will be a whole lot different to someone who says he has a dog that "is very excited"

My use of the word drive is absolutely correct, that is the point, the thing that you believe I an talking about when I say the word drive is not what you are talking about when you use the word drive. Much the same as I can drive my car and I can drive using a golf club, doesn't mean I hit my car with a golf club.

The reason I switched to the word "state" was due to your aversion to the word Drive, I would like to ask you what word you would use to describe what I am talking about, but I assume you do not have one, as according to you what I am talking about does not exist.

I'm not talking about hypnotising a dog at all, read the text in its context and then ask yourself if you see having that control to your training would be a positive or negative thing?

I'm not confused about this issue, you are, as you continue to refuse to acknowledge the fact that what I am describing as initiating "drive" is not the same thing that your are talking about when you say your dog has drive. YOUR DEFINITION OF DRIVE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ONE IN THE WIDELY USED TRAINING METHOD KNOWN AS TRAINING IN DRIVE. I'm sorry that this is the case, but I did not come up with the theory, the method or the terminology, I simply learnt it, and have used it where I felt it would benefit me and my dog and thought I would ask if it had been used in the gundog discipline?

[Springfield Pointers]

My use of the word drive is absolutely correct, that is the point, the thing that you believe I an talking about when I say the word drive is not what you are talking about when you use the word drive.
I'm not confused about this issue, you are.

[Luked]

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear so why try and make a dog something it isn't?

Im not trying to, I'm trying to make the dog the best that it is

[Judy]

Good grief! Nine whole pages and still nobody knows what anyone else is talking about, allegedly. I am considering locking this thread as it appears to be going nowhere so, unless somebody has come up with a solution to this problem by the time I get back from my walk with my dogs, where they will get to see hundreds of bunnies and may follow them if I am very unlucky, I will be in a state of arousal such that this thread may get itself locked.

OK? Everyone understand that?

[Naj]

In regard to the ball of string, it is not what it is, but what it can come to represent to the animal that is the point, what exactly do you feel a ball on the end of a piece of string has to do with training detection dogs to detect stuff? I'm pretty sure that it is not to train them to detect balls on a piece of string, and I'm also pretty sure that they are hunting using scent, something that I have always found a positive talent in a gundog? Hence why I asked whether someone had ever used the method or a similar method to train a gundog.

But I have firmly been told that the method is impossible and ridiculous as the very "state" that it is trying to initiate cannot be turned on or off, a dog can only have it!

Lesson learnt by me, keep my mouth firmly shut in future.

I mentioned in an earlier post how & why the ball-on-a-string works, & that there was no reason why it should not work as a reward. You appear to not understand the simple mechanics behind reward based methods. You state that you have learnt about 'drive' as promoted by the K9 guy, and have used it on your own dogs. So you tell us, does it work for you better than whatever methods you used before, & in what context?

Welsh makes some interesting points over how dog trainers have used & abused scientific terms, over many years. Socialising, whether we like it or not, is now part of the vocabulary of training & providing that everyone understands its meaning then that's perhaps acceptable. The notion of 'Drive' appears to have been started by American trainers & since we in the UK are increasingly being influenced by American gundog sites it is perhaps creeping into our vocabulary. American training sites are littered with mention of 'high-drive' dogs which I always found surprising, because in the UK all our dogs are bred to be, by popular definition, 'high-drive', & if you had one that wasn't then it would quickly end up in a pet home.

Matter of interest Luked, have you trained many gundogs because your obvious surprise that a gundog's trained behaviours are capable of being rewarded/driven by naturally occurring rewards, such as game scent, is disconcerting.

Naj

[Luked]

My use of the word drive is absolutely correct, that is the point, the thing that you believe I an talking about when I say the word drive is not what you are talking about when you use the word drive.
I'm not confused about this issue, you are.

My thoughts exactly SP Tell me what word would make the scenario make sense to you, and I'll use that. then maybe we can discuss if/how/why people have used it and gain some value?

[trekmoor]

Us "experienced trainers" weren't always experienced and I suppose a few of us did feel a need to have all the "i"s dotted and all the "t"s crossed but most of us just did what we do now. We bought the best work bred pups we could afford and said they could "hunt a bit." I never even heard the word "drive" or the words "prey drive" used at all until very recent years .

I am not in the least a scientific or techie sort of person so I tend to bundle the more modern terminology used to describe dog training into the same little , very jumbled, compartment in my head that stores all the jargon concerning modern technology. I don't use I-pods etc. and I am not at all sure what they actually do or are for. I certainly don't need them and I think, if folk were honest, they would admit they don't need them either..... they'd get by very well just having something that could "hunt a bit."

I do like looking at the dog stuff on a computer but I could do fine without one too, I did without one for most of my life. I have a mobile phone my family bought me 2 or 3 years ago , it was last used about that period of time ago and I very seldom even carry it with me.

With all this dog training terminology the "in crowd" are now using I think all they are really doing is carrying around with them a lot of pretty useless baggage.
The dogs themselves won't be any more impressed by it than they are by my much more simplistic approach.

So there !
P.S. Hope I managed to sneak in "the last word" before that auld mare Judy locks the thread !

Wullie

[Springfield Pointers]

My thoughts exactly SP Tell me what word would make the scenario make sense to you, and I'll use that.

The "scenario" makes perfect sense to me, don't confuse me with someone who trains dogs to balance biscuits on their noses or find socks behind a cushion so it can have a furry toy for a romp - this is not my first rodeo. You seem to be the expert mate, tell you what, you pick a word. Because you sure as hell aren't listening to anyone who has any insight on the subject, and we sure as hell aren't playing scrabble.