Training in drive?

[welsh]

My use of the word drive is absolutely correct....

At risk of repeating myself, no. Not only is this use of "drive" incorrect, but the folk theory of dog behaviour that revolves around it -- one in which normal cognition is taken over by adrenalin-driven instinctive behaviour -- is fishy. That theory is not even internally consistent: it insists that drives are adrenalin-driven, then tells us there is a social pack drive. (It also supposes a rank drive that is now known not to exist.)

I mentioned in an earlier post how & why the ball-on-a-string works, & that there was no reason why it should not work as a reward. You appear to not understand the simple mechanics behind reward based methods.

Indeed. One of our problems here is that this ball-on-a-string thing is simply reward-based training that works well for a dog that is motivated by the toy. Nothing else need be in play.

If I am line-steadying a dog I am using a similar method: the dummy will not be thrown until the dog sits. I pull out a dummy, tell the dog to sit, and it sits with alacrity. There is no need to resort to "prey drive" to explain this.

Allow me to suggest that the problem in this thread is not whether a training method applies, but whether a theory applies. If we were talking about whether we could somehow use a ball on a string to improve our training, we would not be involved in this fruitless discussion of what words mean.

[Luked]

In regard to the ball of string, it is not what it is, but what it can come to represent to the animal that is the point, what exactly do you feel a ball on the end of a piece of string has to do with training detection dogs to detect stuff? I'm pretty sure that it is not to train them to detect balls on a piece of string, and I'm also pretty sure that they are hunting using scent, something that I have always found a positive talent in a gundog? Hence why I asked whether someone had ever used the method or a similar method to train a gundog.

But I have firmly been told that the method is impossible and ridiculous as the very "state" that it is trying to initiate cannot be turned on or off, a dog can only have it!

Lesson learnt by me, keep my mouth firmly shut in future.

I mentioned in an earlier post how & why the ball-on-a-string works, & that there was no reason why it should not work as a reward. You appear to not understand the simple mechanics behind reward based methods. You state that you have learnt about 'drive' as promoted by the K9 guy, and have used it on your own dogs. So you tell us, does it work for you better than whatever methods you used before, & in what context?

Welsh makes some interesting points over how dog trainers have used & abused scientific terms, over many years. Socialising, whether we like it or not, is now part of the vocabulary of training & providing that everyone understands its meaning then that's perhaps acceptable. The notion of 'Drive' appears to have been started by American trainers & since we in the UK are increasingly being influenced by American gundog sites it is perhaps creeping into our vocabulary. American training sites are littered with mention of 'high-drive' dogs which I always found surprising, because in the UK all our dogs are bred to be, by popular definition, 'high-drive', & if you had one that wasn't then it would quickly end up in a pet home.

Matter of interest Luked, have you trained many gundogs because your obvious surprise that a gundog's trained behaviours are capable of being rewarded/driven by naturally occurring rewards, such as game scent, is disconcerting.

Naj

As previously explained, in regard to the "sit" I found that it helped accelerate the response and increase focus for the next command, hence why I took the time to learn about it more, I believe that as a traininer of an animal, you need to try and read your animal and choose whatever tool from your tool box will achieve the best result with the animal, circumstances and desired outcome that are sitting in front of you. Surely to do that, you need to learn about many different methods to make sure that your toolkit is not limited to just hammers and mallets?

I'm not surprised that anything a dog finds fun or pleasant might influence its behaviour or likelihood of repeating an action.

[trekmoor]

I can't stand it anymore .... I'm away out with my dogs at least I can usually understand what they say.

Wullie

[leeky]

It's flippin' 4o'clock - i cant believe my whole day has actually revolved around checking this thread

[welsh]

I can't stand it anymore .... I'm away out with my dogs at least I can usually understand what they say.

Give us ten minutes with them, and we'll fix that.

[Luked]

Indeed. One of our problems here is that this ball-on-a-string thing is simply reward-based training that works well for a dog that is motivated by the toy. Nothing else need be in play.

Allow me to suggest that the problem in this thread is not whether a training method applies, but whether a theory applies. If we were talking about whether we could somehow use a ball on a string to improve our training, we would not be involved in this fruitless discussion of what words mean.

Couldn't every method of training be described as simply training that works well for a dog that is motivated by?

Or possibly training that works well for a dog that is demotivated by?

It's training a dog, not theoretical physics.

You find something that works and apply it when it is appropriate, I don't discuss with my dog why he feels compelled to react in a sharper way with the introduction of a toy (in certain circumstances) and In honesty I don't much care, I was purely wondering if anyone on this forum had used a similar type of training and applied it specifically to gundogs. In the hope that people could share their experiences and maybe in some cases add a tool to their training toolbox, assuming that not everyone on here knows everything about training dogs (I know that I certainly don't, hence why I look for forums like this and try to discuss things)

[Luked]

It's flippin' 4o'clock - i cant believe my whole day has actually revolved around checking this thread

It's 1am here in Australia

Got to go to bed, I for one hope that the thread doesn't get locked and that some people have managed to gain something from it. If however the decision is made to lock it, so be it.

[welsh]

It's training a dog, not theoretical physics.

This was my point: train the dog in front of you.

[Judy]

Indeed. One of our problems here is that this ball-on-a-string thing is simply reward-based training that works well for a dog that is motivated by the toy. Nothing else need be in play.

Allow me to suggest that the problem in this thread is not whether a training method applies, but whether a theory applies. If we were talking about whether we could somehow use a ball on a string to improve our training, we would not be involved in this fruitless discussion of what words mean.

Couldn't every method of training be described as simply training that works well for a dog that is motivated by?

Or possibly training that works well for a dog that is demotivated by?

It's training a dog, not theoretical physics.

You find something that works and apply it when it is appropriate, I don't discuss with my dog why he feels compelled to react in a sharper way with the introduction of a toy (in certain circumstances) and In honesty I don't much care, I was purely wondering if anyone on this forum had used a similar type of training and applied it specifically to gundogs. In the hope that people could share their experiences and maybe in some cases add a tool to their training toolbox, assuming that not everyone on here knows everything about training dogs (I know that I certainly don't, hence why I look for forums like this and try to discuss things)

But this ball on string malarkey is simple reward training nothing to do with drive as we know it. If you waved a bit of garlic sausage over the dogs's head it would sit just as sharply. Associating rewards with awakening drive is ermm, twaddle. The guy on the web site was talking about simple reward based training, just using terminology to confuse the masses like a lot of others these days, in my terribly humble opinion of course.

When we talk about drive in a gundog we mean the natural inbuilt desire to do the job with style, nothing to do with awakening drive as in reward training as far as I can see. Does this mean this whole thread is resting on a load of hot air?

[Nonehpets]

Does this mean this whole thread is resting on a load of hot air?

... more like jiggling up and down on a piece of by now very stretched string?

Cathy