whistleshappy wrote:. I use ' there' if a dog looks like it might be struggling to locate a dummy, for example, in an area I know to be the area the dummy is placed. Only if the dog looks like it might need a helping hand. Where possible I like them to work it out for themselves, within reason.
+1.
a there/hi lost is also quite handy if the dog's looking like it's considering blinking the retrieve.
I have another command for that one; "fetch it you bar steward!"
Bryn, you can't teach your dog anything when it comes to deciphering scent. learning to sort out the heel-line from the 'true' line, 'over-running' where a runner has tucked in or made a turn then realising it is at fault & back casting itself to pick up the line again & make good the find are how young dogs learn to find runners. Once you start 'stopping & re-directing' you are only slowing/stopping the learning process. In the case in question you happened to know where the bird had tucked in (what would have happened if you hadn't have known, as is more likely with a runner?) but you were doing the dog no favours by interfering, and left to its own devices it would have made good the retrieve by itself & learnt a ton more in doing so. If it had gone badly wrong then, yes, there is a need to get involved, but a young spaniel generally only needs to pull off one runner (on its own) - and this one was an ideal bird for a young dog's first runner by the sounds of it - & it will have crossed a milestone & will be made for life on them. One of the biggest problems some young spaniels have to overcome when faced with runners is a lack of confidence through worrying that they may be doing something wrong, so the less input from you, the better.
Bryn wrote:I use 'there' close in or 'pip-pip' further out, been thinking recently that at the range a spaniel should be hunting that voice should be sufficient. Suppose it helps if you've spent a few years working collies on the hill
'pip-pip'? So what do you use as your turn whistle when quartering the dog.
I think it's easy to over complicate things with all these 'theres', 'pips' & 'hi-losts'. The minute you start chucking superfluous whistle pips & commands at a hunting dog is the moment that you begin distracting it from its job, & also the moment you start disturbing game. Surely, the less commands, the better. Dogs are very context based in their thinking & providing they are given the necessary experience & conditioning into the relevant routines they know the difference between sweeping-up (and ranging out) on one command when picking-up & quartering close (perhaps on the same command) when hunting up for the gun or beating. And as for repeating a 'hunting' command when a dog is already hunting - what's the point? As regards hunting at the fall on a blind retrieve scenario. In the majority of cases you are sending the dog on a straight line for the fall, & given the opportunity it will learn to have the sense to run to the downwind side of where you handle it to so it will invariably pick up the scent as it passes the 'fall' location. If it is in danger of over-running the fall or moves out of the fall are & you have to stop it to handle it back in, then a dog of experience surely knows that it is in the location & must begin hunting, unless it is used to being sent on a fool's errand. If the dog is miles out on its initial cast & has to be re-handled some distance then that is surely pilot error.
Naj
The way I see it until he gains the maturity and experience he's going to need help which is where the commands come in.
Missed this, posting at the same time. He will mature and gain more experience from making his own mistakes and correcting them. Providing the situation you are in and time allows.
Dogs do things for results. If you are smart in training you can provide the results. Those results shape the behavior of the dog. You will never teach a dog to hunt, want to hunt or retrieve - you breed for that. The behavior is your fault..
Springfield Pointers wrote:Dogs do things for results. If you are smart in training you can provide the results. Those results shape the behavior of the dog. You will never teach a dog to hunt, want to hunt or retrieve - you breed for that. The behavior is your fault..
Correct in one sense, & if the dog gains results without the interference of the handler (in this situation), surely everyone is a winner?
I honestly think you are either missing the crux of the OP's question or your interpretation of the question is different. Maybe it's my interpretation that is wrong. The dog is being sent to retrieve not to hunt? I want a dog doing nil hunting when it's sent for a retrieve, the less hunting it does, the better.
Naj/WH thanks, we were beating down a gully with quite a bit of old wire and stuff that had been dumped and worked its way down to the bottom where Bryn and I were working our way down the burn, the line was moving fairly rapidly and we were covering probably the most difficult ground, so I needed to recover the bird quickly (the birds had been reluctant to fly and the guns were getting impatient). Ideally I'd have had time to let him get on with it, on the other hand it does reinforce the idea that working together is a good thing. We learned a lot on that shoot and our next two outings are on the same ground but different guns, after that its back down to Millom which is different again and happily a bit less challenging terrain.
I use "there" and also pip,pip on the whistle but it's all to do with the tone you use. You want the dog to slow down and hunt not race about like an idiot. So if I was saying "there" really fast dog would go faster if u said it slowly dog will learn to slow down and hunt
Hang on a minute! So what you are saying is that a dog has to go slow to hunt effectively? You must have different dogs to what I've been used to. If a dog is racing about like an idiot & not hunting then that is a totally different issue.
Naj wrote:Hang on a minute! So what you are saying is that a dog has to go slow to hunt effectively? You must have different dogs to what I've been used to. If a dog is racing about like an idiot & not hunting then that is a totally different issue.
Naj
100%. Dogs can hunt at high speed. Anyone ever seen a pointer slam into a point at full gallop?
learning to sort out the heel-line from the 'true' line, 'over-running' where a runner has tucked in or made a turn then realising it is at fault & back casting itself to pick up the line again & make good the find are how young dogs learn to find runners. Once you start 'stopping & re-directing' you are only slowing/stopping the learning process. In the case in question you happened to know where the bird had tucked in (what would have happened if you hadn't have known, as is more likely with a runner?) but you were doing the dog no favours by interfering, and left to its own devices it would have made good the retrieve by itself & learnt a ton more in doing so. If it had gone badly wrong then, yes, there is a need to get involved, but a young spaniel generally only needs to pull off one runner (on its own) - and this one was an ideal bird for a young dog's first runner by the sounds of it - & it will have crossed a milestone & will be made for life on them. One of the biggest problems some young spaniels have to overcome when faced with runners is a lack of confidence through worrying that they may be doing something wrong, so the less input from you, the better. 
be hunting that voice should be sufficient. Suppose it helps if you've spent a few years working collies on the hill 
So what you are saying is that a dog has to go slow to hunt effectively?