Encouraging to hunt hedges?

[whistleshappy]

Can't quite understand how you could interpret what I posted as me stating that you had to be hard on a pup to get the best out of it, quite the contrary. I think that even you would agree that you have to be gentler when dealing with a 4 month old pup than you would with a 10 month old. And in your eagerness to make your 'case' you appear to have mixed up your threads & taken quotes totally out of context. . You did say (on another thread) that you are genuinely interested in hearing how different handlers approached conditioning young pups, so it's a bit mealy mouthed to then attempt to rubbish what they have posted in good faith. I've always been open over my use of traditional and positive based methods, and am always interested in discussing the merits of the different methods - that's surely what a forum is all about - but please don't feel challenged because I may use different methods to what you choose to use. I really don't mind what you do.

Naj

ps. the Cocker that used to enjoy the occasional snipe was trained by more traditional methods & not introduced to game retrieves until much older, other than the 'unscheduled' accident with a wild duckling brood.

[Naj]

Interesting point, Chris, not entirely sure it holds water given the results when I have inadvertently encouraged my dogs into cover thinking they are "on" that pricked bird we were looking for only to find its a small brown furry thing instead... and I think shooting one your dog has flushed might also up the game a tad. Ask Naj whether early exposure to game results in a slower hunter.

At the end of the most dogs seem to turn out OK whatever way we go about training them. Or should I say in spite of the way we train them?

The pups that have been developed with a background of game scent have never lost drive. Can't quite see how they could unless a clumsy trainer squashed them, but they would be quite likely to do this no matter what the age. The whole point of introducing pups early to game/scent is to maintain drive while developing control. At a young age the odds are stacked in your favour, because the pup's full hunting drive hasn't yet developed & it is still at an age where its natural tendency is to look inwards, towards you.

Naj

[Sgurr]

Just for the record, not I'm not confused about which pup. The older pup has a trainer who knew Joe Irving (not just read the books like me) and the point he made to me was he was going softly with this bitch as Joe would. He's happy with what the pup (the older one) is doing. The younger pup was in the rabbit pen at four months and again her trainer is happy with her. Two different pups, two different trainers, two different approaches with pups that have good noses. And yes the OP's post is about hunting, as are my comments. I'll do an update on both pups on a new thread at some point.

Sgurr

[whistleshappy]

Hunting on game scent is massively different to hunting the pup into game. Of course, hunting a pup, randomly, to encounter game, will never slow a pup down. Doing it too early (live game hunting), does give you very little chance to assess the pups true character & how it will be, approaching & during maturity. Encouraging to hunt on scent is not encouraging contact with game. Nothing at all wrong with encouraging a very young pup to hunt on scent IMO.

[chrisjd2]

At the moment Molly is sitting to whistle nicely, if Molly bumps into game during a walk or training session I am going to let her chase for the 1st or 2nd encounter with game. Just so she know how's to "go" before I tell her to "stop"

[Sgurr]

At the moment Molly is sitting to whistle nicely, if Molly bumps into game during a walk or training session I am going to let her chase for the 1st or 2nd encounter with game. Just so she know how's to "go" before I tell her to "stop"

I just would not presume to answer your question Chris, but I think the replies will be very interesting.

Hunting on game scent is massively different to hunting the pup into game. Of course, hunting a pup, randomly, to encounter game, will never slow a pup down. Doing it too early (live game hunting), does give you very little chance to assess the pups true character & how it will be, approaching & during maturity. Encouraging to hunt on scent is not encouraging contact with game. Nothing at all wrong with encouraging a very young pup to hunt on scent IMO.

Throwing another spaniel into the works, whistleshappy, the litter brother to the younger pup has just successfully completed his tests on blood trials and this from his trainer

This means he had to work out a way of about 100 meters with only a few blood drops of wild boar blood. He had his nose constantly down on the floor. Excellent ! We are really proud of him !!!

So that one is being encouraged to hunt on scent.

Sgurr

[whistleshappy]

At the moment Molly is sitting to whistle nicely, if Molly bumps into game during a walk or training session I am going to let her chase for the 1st or 2nd encounter with game. Just so she know how's to "go" before I tell her to "stop"

She probably wont chase the first encounter anyway. Depending on how she finds it/see's it. After that, you might not have too much say in the matter The fact she sits on the whistle will have no bearing whatsoever on things after the "1st" & " 2nd" encounter.

Some will do this with a young pup, others choose not to. Personally, I want to do every possible thing to encourage a pup between 8 weeks & approx 8 months to hunt with enthusiasm without seeing game if possible. After that, assess the pups drive & temperament then make a decision on how next to move on. Two different pups with the same trainer and training techniques can, & more times than not, will, be managed/trained in different ways. It's more about the individual pup first & then deciding/assessing, how to manage it's training from then on. IMO, it is easier to assess the true pup in front of you once you have a good idea regarding it's real character together with it's strengths & weaknesses.Can a true assessment of the pup be made at 12 weeks? 16 weeks?

Might be worth adding that a pen can be used for training in many ways & does not neccessarily need to be used only to encourage steadiness or chasing.

[Rascal]

At the moment Molly is sitting to whistle nicely, if Molly bumps into game during a walk or training session I am going to let her chase for the 1st or 2nd encounter with game. Just so she know how's to "go" before I tell her to "stop"

Why? Hunting isn't about chasing...... Quite the opposite...

Until I'd got the measure of a youngster and not a pup of your pups age, I personally wouldn't do that.......

Rascal

[chrisjd2]

I know hunting isn't about chasing, chasing is a reward to hunting therefor the hunting is rewarded by a chase. Then that should keep good hunting drive by getting rewarded by the chase. After a couple of chases you can get it to sit to flush and then the reward can be a long memory retrieve or a blind retrieve etc so the dog is still getting a motive to hunt. Someone said before the retrieve is part of the "game".

Find it, kill it, retrieve it.

[shropshirelad]

chasing is a reward to hunting therefor the hunting is rewarded by a chase.

I don't understand why the dog is rewarded for chasing.