Practical dog training

[newf]

In the past, it seemed, there was basically one way to train a dog...force. I suppose, the only differences between trainers would be the amount of force. With that being said, I would guess that soul searching about whether or not one was fair to the dog probably was not a tormenting issue because training was just that, show the dog first, then compel the dog ...straight forward, end of story.

In contrast today, training runs the gamut of traditional force to purely positive with absolutely no aversives. Professional trainers the world over compete for our money with this array of styles with most claiming the others have it all wrong, except them. Newbies to this world are bombarded with too many choices and critized for taking the wrong choice be it compulsion which is deemed cruel or positive which is condemmed as being permissive in some circles. Then again, if one attempts to balance things and retreats to the middle ground...balanced approach...well then, you're not really suppose to mix force and treating together because it hinders the dogs' progress cause the intimidation retards motivation and problem solving.

Personally, I have trained in the past following Koehler's compulsion model but have abandoned that for a more moderate approach. Now I train with treats and rewards as much as possible 'til I get the behaviors I want. After that, I do enforce or proof them with a firm "no", a "look", a tug, and as last resort a quick scruff shake.

With this being said, I would like to ask the question : When all the trainer chest pounding and sales pitch is stripped away from what is needed, what is left as being the common ground to sound training practices that will be fair to the dog and get him trained in a practical and timely fashion ?

[trekmoor]

Do what works, don't do what doesn't.

Wullie

[Malfuss]

Do what works, don't do what doesn't.

Wullie

That's pretty much what I replied, then deleted.

[crackerd]

newf, if I may hazard such a comment, you've come to the wrong place to be discoursing on or demonizing force, and I'm not selling any gadgets or gimmicry in saying it's a dead cert that William Koehler never trained a gundog in his long and "obedient" life.

MG

[NikkiD]

whichever method you use, I have come to the conclusion that it is less about "training" and more about the connection you have with your dog and the will to work with you and be around you.

[ramona]

as much as I like the idea that the connection is the glue - I would suggest that connection and the will to work for you is something you generate through training? So I guess then the question is.. what method is the best for this purpose?

[Springfield Pointers]

People make a very simple process most complicated. Too much psychobabble.

[Naj]

what is left as being the common ground to sound training practices that will be fair to the dog and get him trained in a practical and timely fashion

Ask a hundred people & you'll get a 100 different answers - it's purely a matter of opinion. There is no common ground, other than getting a dog trained in a practical & timely fashion, & even then some trainers will disagree on what amount of time that might take. If you are a more traditional style of trainer then you presumably believe that you are using sound training practices that are fair to the dog & not punitive or cruel, otherwise you wouldn't be using them. Who likes to think of themselves as a cruel trainer/person? I seem to have followed a similar path to yourself but when I was training using traditional punishment based methods I was, what I would consider now, to be a hard trainer, although no different to all of my peers, but at the time I considered myself to be firm but fair, & the methods I used not in the least cruel or inappropriate.

Naj

[newf]

newf, if I may hazard such a comment, you've come to the wrong place to be discoursing on or demonizing force, and I'm not selling any gadgets or gimmicry in saying it's a dead cert that William Koehler never trained a gundog in his long and "obedient" life.

MG

Crackerd, I apologize for being unclear but I'm not demonizing anything...if force works, good; if rewards work, great ! I realize that Koehler was not a gundog man but an expert at obedience. However, gundogs must be obedient to a degree so hunting and retrieving skills can be taught with some control. I just referred to that man because that is how I approached ob in the past and it is considered I think, classic compulsion training.

With that being said, I was curious about experienced gundog owners and what they have boiled down as the training essentials in regards to basic ob that are both simple and practical in producing an obedient gundog. This may include anything from timing, rewards, to force and punishment. What is it, that a trainer can get by without it ?

[Judy]

A one word answer would be timing, its easy to train a dog when you have your timing right. I do feel though its about how you live with your dog too, if they know what's wanted of them and you are consistent and fair they can relax and learn.

If you can lay your hands on some gundog training books written at the turn of the last century there's a fair bit about what we might now call positive non compulsive training, my guess is there's always been people who train with understanding and kindness and others who belong to the "I say you do" faction.