Umbilical Hernia
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There is no substitute to visiting your Vet - he has the knowledge and experience and can see/feel/smell your dog and advise accordingly. Please apply your own judgement and common sense to any advice given. What works for one dog might not work for another. If you are in any doubt please visit your Vet! General Forum Rules
There is no substitute to visiting your Vet - he has the knowledge and experience and can see/feel/smell your dog and advise accordingly. Please apply your own judgement and common sense to any advice given. What works for one dog might not work for another. If you are in any doubt please visit your Vet! General Forum Rules
Re: Umbilical Hernia
Thanks for your opinions. I think if it had been solely my decision I would have thrown caution to the wind and just gone with the pup I like, taking any future problems on the chin. But unfortunately, although I will be training the pup, the OH will actually work it and he is really not keen... not even a good sulk has swayed him
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PrairieBoy
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
Thats fine because he would blame everything that went wrong on the hernia.
And the dog would know it.
So now you will find out if the pup you get was just having a bad day when you first viewed it and will now warm up very quickly to you.
Since no one is listening, I can tell you that guys just don't have a mothering instinct, as my wife clearly demonstrated to me.
And the dog would know it.
So now you will find out if the pup you get was just having a bad day when you first viewed it and will now warm up very quickly to you.
Since no one is listening, I can tell you that guys just don't have a mothering instinct, as my wife clearly demonstrated to me.
Re: Umbilical Hernia
I don't think the other pup was having a bad day - it sounds as if the first pup was grabbing all the attention and the other's didn't get chance to shine by comparisonPrairieBoy wrote:So now you will find out if the pup you get was just having a bad day when you first viewed it and will now warm up very quickly to you.
Often the boldest pup is not the pick of the litter ... just the one that is in your face so you think so. Dicey's sister was one of those and so was Schilling's sister ... but since I prefer keeping dogs they just got overlooked by me
Sunbeam enjoy your puppy when she comes home ...
Cathy
There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. Edith Wharton
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Hepe
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
Hmm this popped up in my mail now for some reason, i don't see a recent reply? Anyhow now i'm curious, how did it go with the choice and the pup?
Helene
Helene
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beechessam
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
Interesting. So given the dam and sire produced the pup with the hernia should they not be bred from again?
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beechessam
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
Really surprised no one has commented on this?
I'm sure there must be someone with a view or opinion on it?
I'm sure there must be someone with a view or opinion on it?
Re: Umbilical Hernia
Beechessam
There is a view that umbilical hernia is hereditary and if so not a good idea to mate the same pair again. There is also the issue that either the bitch or the breeder has failed to sever the cord properly - or the vet if a c- section. So far as I know, only one pup (grand pup) from my breeding lines has had an umbilical hernia. It is just one of those areas where there is very little information - and we are not a trusting community willing to share what we know.
Sgurr
There is a view that umbilical hernia is hereditary and if so not a good idea to mate the same pair again. There is also the issue that either the bitch or the breeder has failed to sever the cord properly - or the vet if a c- section. So far as I know, only one pup (grand pup) from my breeding lines has had an umbilical hernia. It is just one of those areas where there is very little information - and we are not a trusting community willing to share what we know.
Sgurr
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beechessam
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
So should the mating not be repeated or neither dog be bred from?
Because if we assume this is genetic and not the result of an over zealous bitch, both parents carry the gene as they've produced an affected pup so should they no longer be bred from?
I'm sure if a test was developed that showed it was hereditary and a pup was affected we would say Dam and Sire should not be bred from unless mated to clear dogs.
Maybe one day a test will be produced and it will be interesting to see people's reactions.
Or am I misreading or over simplifying it?
Because if we assume this is genetic and not the result of an over zealous bitch, both parents carry the gene as they've produced an affected pup so should they no longer be bred from?
I'm sure if a test was developed that showed it was hereditary and a pup was affected we would say Dam and Sire should not be bred from unless mated to clear dogs.
Maybe one day a test will be produced and it will be interesting to see people's reactions.
Or am I misreading or over simplifying it?
Re: Umbilical Hernia
There has been a recent paper published comparing the number of genetic conditions/diseases for specific breeds of dog and the number of DNA tests currently available. From memory, Springers ranked number 4, with approximately 70 genetic disorders and only three tests (Fuco, PFK and PRA Cord 1).
If anyone is interested, I can post the link including the commentary from Institute of Canine Biology, so you can see how other breeds rank.
Umbilical hernia is likely to be hereditary but it is an easily correctable condition (minor op which is what the grand pup had and he was neutered at the same time, but both his people are vets so it wasn't an issue). With the number of other genetic disorders, many of them more severe but rare, I think it will be a very long time before there will be a DNA test for this. And if/when there is, most gundog people will ignore it and continue doing what they always did. In other breeds and show lines it is accepted not to breed from a pup that has had an umbilical hernia, even if it has been corrected.
Personally, I was hoping the next DNA test for Springers would be for MRD, but it is AMS (Acral Mutilation Syndrome), as in the cockers, with the first reports of problems in Springers going back to 1999. Also with MRD, it can be screened for between 6 and 12 weeks, but how many people do? If anyone can add to the list of Quincegrove, Scherzando and Sgurr I'd be delighted.
If anyone is interested, I can post the link including the commentary from Institute of Canine Biology, so you can see how other breeds rank.
Umbilical hernia is likely to be hereditary but it is an easily correctable condition (minor op which is what the grand pup had and he was neutered at the same time, but both his people are vets so it wasn't an issue). With the number of other genetic disorders, many of them more severe but rare, I think it will be a very long time before there will be a DNA test for this. And if/when there is, most gundog people will ignore it and continue doing what they always did. In other breeds and show lines it is accepted not to breed from a pup that has had an umbilical hernia, even if it has been corrected.
Personally, I was hoping the next DNA test for Springers would be for MRD, but it is AMS (Acral Mutilation Syndrome), as in the cockers, with the first reports of problems in Springers going back to 1999. Also with MRD, it can be screened for between 6 and 12 weeks, but how many people do? If anyone can add to the list of Quincegrove, Scherzando and Sgurr I'd be delighted.
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vicky payne
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Re: Umbilical Hernia
Sorry I'm late to the party on this one but.....Oh Umbilica hernias!
1) they are not caused by the mum chewing the cord too short.
2) they can be hereditary....BUT
3) they can be congenital but not inherited.
4) some pups have an umbilicus which is slow to close, but eventually does....is this relevant? we don't know.
5) i have seen more umbilical hernias in cross breeds than in pedigrees....weird.
That makes things soooooo complicated doesn't it!
We don't know the inheritance of UH but as most inherited disease are simple recessive mutations let's assume it's one of those. So if around 1/4 of a litter have hernias I think the odds are it's genetic and both parents are carriers. I wouldn't necessarily not breed either parent again as hernias aren't fatal...but I would mate them to different partners. If most or all of a litter are affected I suspect this is caused by an 'insult in utero' a fever or infection which messes up the umbilical closure timings. I also suspect (but with no hard evidence) that the timing of closure may be subtly different in different breeds, hence the prevalence in crossbreeds.
If a pup has a small hernia that corrects should it be bred from? There is a risk of rupture in a heavily pregnant bitch if there remains a weakness, plus there is a risk of her producing pups with hernias if hers was hereditary and you're unlucky enough to pick a carrier sire. BUT it is a minor defect and if the bitch was otherwise top notch....look for an older, well used dog who has no history of throwing hernias. Even big hernias can be repaired...unlike some things like MRD which can't.
1) they are not caused by the mum chewing the cord too short.
2) they can be hereditary....BUT
3) they can be congenital but not inherited.
4) some pups have an umbilicus which is slow to close, but eventually does....is this relevant? we don't know.
5) i have seen more umbilical hernias in cross breeds than in pedigrees....weird.
That makes things soooooo complicated doesn't it!
We don't know the inheritance of UH but as most inherited disease are simple recessive mutations let's assume it's one of those. So if around 1/4 of a litter have hernias I think the odds are it's genetic and both parents are carriers. I wouldn't necessarily not breed either parent again as hernias aren't fatal...but I would mate them to different partners. If most or all of a litter are affected I suspect this is caused by an 'insult in utero' a fever or infection which messes up the umbilical closure timings. I also suspect (but with no hard evidence) that the timing of closure may be subtly different in different breeds, hence the prevalence in crossbreeds.
If a pup has a small hernia that corrects should it be bred from? There is a risk of rupture in a heavily pregnant bitch if there remains a weakness, plus there is a risk of her producing pups with hernias if hers was hereditary and you're unlucky enough to pick a carrier sire. BUT it is a minor defect and if the bitch was otherwise top notch....look for an older, well used dog who has no history of throwing hernias. Even big hernias can be repaired...unlike some things like MRD which can't.