When is enough enough ?

[Sgurr]

And the simple question - do you still like the dog?
If you do, keep going - if you don't, let go.

[fenboy]

And the simple question - do you still like the dog?
If you do, keep going - if you don't, let go.

I still very much like the dog , I just wish he would behave as good as he looks

[Naj]

What's he like with water retrieves? Difficult for a dog to mess about with a retrieve when they are out on water. And they are also in a different environment to their usual 'muck-about' one so tend to react differently. If water retrieves work just stick with them & then gradually incorporate more land work into them. If more interesting retrieves in cover or long memories & using natural barriers to funnel the dog back to you don't work I would go to back-chaining from the 'hold'. You could do this traditionally or by clicker style. Working to a sit/stay/recall drill while holding. Walking at heel while holding. Giving & taking back lessons. Aside from this you work on recall drills, on a light line if they are inclined to fail. Then you put them together, again on a light line & in a confined space & move on from there, going back to basics if one element falls down. This will take many weeks/months before you get back to a reliable retrieve. I also agree with Cathy that the breeding has nothing to do with the dog fooling about. The best bred dogs will do this & it is simply a management/training problem. The seeming lack of interest is a displacement behaviour because the dog is confused, bored or under too much pressure. You can get the same thing with a pup from any breeding. I also like her antibiotic analogy & agree that this is likely to be a big part of your problem. An 'in for a penny, in for a pound attitude' is a bit too gung-ho for the methodical & structured approach that you need to effectively sort out these types of problem. I'm sure that this is fixable, given time, patience, expertise & ingenuity, but it all depends upon whether you think it worth fixing. It makes no difference to me whether you keep the dog or not.

Naj

[fenboy]

What's he like with water retrieves? Difficult for a dog to mess about with a retrieve when they are out on water. And they are also in a different environment to their usual 'muck-about' one so tend to react differently. If water retrieves work just stick with them & then gradually incorporate more land work into them. If more interesting retrieves in cover or long memories & using natural barriers to funnel the dog back to you don't work I would go to back-chaining from the 'hold'. You could do this traditionally or by clicker style. Working to a sit/stay/recall drill while holding. Walking at heel while holding. Giving & taking back lessons. Aside from this you work on recall drills, on a light line if they are inclined to fail. Then you put them together, again on a light line & in a confined space & move on from there, going back to basics if one element falls down. This will take many weeks/months before you get back to a reliable retrieve. I also agree with Cathy that the breeding has nothing to do with the dog fooling about. The best bred dogs will do this & it is simply a management/training problem. The seeming lack of interest is a displacement behaviour because the dog is confused, bored or under too much pressure. You can get the same thing with a pup from any breeding. I also like her antibiotic analogy & agree that this is likely to be a big part of your problem. An 'in for a penny, in for a pound attitude' is a bit too gung-ho for the methodical & structured approach that you need to effectively sort out these types of problem. I'm sure that this is fixable, given time, patience, expertise & ingenuity, but it all depends upon whether you think it worth fixing. It makes no difference to me whether you keep the dog or not.

Naj

Perhaps "in for a penny in for a pound" was the wrong way to express it , I realise what ever path I take it will need sticking at but I have received as usual several differing opinions of the way forward and I would like to satisfy my own mind that a particular idea or suggestion has merit and a chance of achieving success before I chuck all my eggs in that basket .
Water retrieves are not a problem as the dog does not have the opportunity to get past me .
Using natural barriers is difficult for me , there are very few in my part of the world , farmers do not like hedges etc around here and I have a unbroken view of about 3 miles from the back of my house !

[Springfield Pointers]

Force *cough, cough* Fetch. *cough*

[trekmoor]

That did cross my mind S.P. but very few folk in Britain know how to F.F. a dog and I'm not sure how well looking at it being done on U-tube would work ? I still think the clicker route would work ....even pigeons, ducks and cats have been taught to retrieve using clickers.

Wullie

[Naj]

Then develop it from water retrieves, gradually increasing the distance the dog returns over land, & then reducing the distance it has to swim until it is retrieving overland from the waters edge.

As regards passing it on to a pet home. I've passed on dogs in the past (to working homes) for a variety of reasons, but I've always ensured that they were trained in basic obedience first. I don't know how bad/good its recall is but I wouldn't imagine any pet owner thanking you for giving/selling them a dog with a dodgy recall or one that plays keep-away every time it doesn't want to do something. If you're passing on a generally well trained & well mannered gundog because it won't retrieve that is one thing, but if it is because you can't control it then I think you have a responsibility to sort out the problem (that you have created) or live with it, & not pass it on to some unsuspecting pet owner. Sorry if your dog is generally well behaved but, if not, these are my thoughts on passing a dog on.

Naj

[Rascal]

Here’s my thoughts..........

The fact that your dog licks your ears isn’t necessarily a sign of his affection for you it can also be appeasement behaviour too.

We can’t see your dog the trainer could and given that he’d been displaying that type of behaviour for most of his life then eight weeks probably wasn’t enough to completely eradicate it. However you did say he was better with the trainer and as Judy pointed out he would probably simply revert once he returned to you as you are experiencing now.

You are trying to train this dog to meet your timescale not his and somewhere along the line I can’t help feeling you’ve transmitted the pressure you feel to him. So chillax take the pressure off him and more importantly you, if you’re chilled he will be too. I wouldn’t worry about his breeding either, so far you haven’t managed to knock his desire to go get the thing, just messed up somewhere with him returning to you with it. Although reading your first post you could be heading for problems in knocking his desire to go get it too.

You say praise doesn’t float his boat, you said food works so use it to build the broken bits of the retrieve as has been suggested by others.

Don’t expect results too quick and start close up with the dog sat in front of you, never treat for a dummy that isn’t placed in your hand on your release command and you won’t be giving yourself any future problems, the important thing is he needs to understand what the treat is for and work for it.

Build it slowly and move in small steps to having him pick the dummy from the floor in front of you hold it and release it, rather than take it from your hand. If as I suspect you’ve given yourself problems by trying the force the issue by repeatedly shoving it back in his mouth. Do that for 5 mins 3 or four times a day over a period of a week then gradually after you’ve placed the dummy take a couple of steps back and so on. Don’t be in a rush to move this outside of the garden or house or to start tossing dummies again for a while and when you do start only a leads length and gradually build it.

As Naj says you will probably encounter flashes of this behaviour in the future especially if you try to move too quickly but done patiently I think it’s probably your best bet now. I would actually feed this dog his whole daily food ration by hand for delivery, recalls and heel work. But as I said he needs to understand the action required to earn the treat and you need to understand the methodology and not bribe him. Which is probably where a clicker would be a good thing, as it instantly tells the dog he got it right and it doesn’t matter that the treat is delivered slightly afterwards. There are loads of good videos on Youtube of clicker training so get a good understanding before you start.

You may find yourself at odds with your trainer with this though but if it works for you what the hell? The important thing is to pick a method, stick with it and see it through patiently. Completely ignore any flashes of the old behaviour and stay calm when he exhibits them.........

Rascal

[fenboy]

Here’s my thoughts..........

The fact that your dog licks your ears isn’t necessarily a sign of his affection for you it can also be appeasement behaviour too.

We can’t see your dog the trainer could and given that he’d been displaying that type of behaviour for most of his life then eight weeks probably wasn’t enough to completely eradicate it. However you did say he was better with the trainer and as Judy pointed out he would probably simply revert once he returned to you as you are experiencing now.

You are trying to train this dog to meet your timescale not his and somewhere along the line I can’t help feeling you’ve transmitted the pressure you feel to him. So chillax take the pressure off him and more importantly you, if you’re chilled he will be too. I wouldn’t worry about his breeding either, so far you haven’t managed to knock his desire to go get the thing, just messed up somewhere with him returning to you with it. Although reading your first post you could be heading for problems in knocking his desire to go get it too.

You say praise doesn’t float his boat, you said food works so use it to build the broken bits of the retrieve as has been suggested by others.

Don’t expect results too quick and start close up with the dog sat in front of you, never treat for a dummy that isn’t placed in your hand on your release command and you won’t be giving yourself any future problems, the important thing is he needs to understand what the treat is for and work for it.

Build it slowly and move in small steps to having him pick the dummy from the floor in front of you hold it and release it, rather than take it from your hand. If as I suspect you’ve given yourself problems by trying the force the issue by repeatedly shoving it back in his mouth. Do that for 5 mins 3 or four times a day over a period of a week then gradually after you’ve placed the dummy take a couple of steps back and so on. Don’t be in a rush to move this outside of the garden or house or to start tossing dummies again for a while and when you do start only a leads length and gradually build it.

As Naj says you will probably encounter flashes of this behaviour in the future especially if you try to move too quickly but done patiently I think it’s probably your best bet now. I would actually feed this dog his whole daily food ration by hand for delivery, recalls and heel work. But as I said he needs to understand the action required to earn the treat and you need to understand the methodology and not bribe him. Which is probably where a clicker would be a good thing, as it instantly tells the dog he got it right and it doesn’t matter that the treat is delivered slightly afterwards. There are loads of good videos on Youtube of clicker training so get a good understanding before you start.

You may find yourself at odds with your trainer with this though but if it works for you what the hell? The important thing is to pick a method, stick with it and see it through patiently. Completely ignore any flashes of the old behaviour and stay calm when he exhibits them.........

Rascal

Thanks
Your advice is very similar to some I received via PM.
I have not really as you say had to shove the dummy back in his mouth , though he has on occasion dropped it .
He is normally fine with going out for the dummy , and once he is back to me he will usually hold until I tell him to release it .
The main issue is that he generally will run around in a wide circle with it for a while before delivering it .

I do think the food reward is the way to go and this is the route I am planning to take both for recall and for the type of dummy work you mention .
I will drop giving him dummy retrieves for now and build it up as you have mentioned , I will still give him water retrieves as I do not have any real problems with that as he will deliver it when I am right in front of him as he comes out of the water.

[Springfield Pointers]

Try his training along a hedgerow or such place that requires him to come straight in. Also a firm "no" if he knows you are less than pleased when he is doing his lap may also stop the behaviour. Just remember not to reprimand him when he comes in though.