Saturns spirit

[beechessam]

How many of that 600 have been hip scored?

If I were to be looking for a foundation bitch I, personally, would want something which wasn't closely related to a dog throwing poor hips however good the lines were. There is such a poor history of hip scoring in ESS could anyone be sure their own line is clear and when it comes to line breeding from your bitch / dog where would you go to be sure of not throwing pups with poor joints?

I agree though that there is no guarantee even with fully tested parents but we should be doing the best we can, perhaps?

And of course it must be the dogs fault? What about the bitch? He produced over 600 dogs and now because of two results people are saying they don't want him in their lines?!

What about the FTCH FTW FTAW he produced and the countless excellent shooting dogs. Are they all crippled? No and I've neither seen or heard of one that is.

The best we can? That means looking at the full picture, everything, not a few figures on mykc. Type ability suitability for purpose. If some people get their way health testing will destroy the dogs we have today. We could breed genetically perfect dogs unfit for purpose. However genes can mutate so your clear clear dogs could one day produce carriers!

As I said its personal choice, I was asked why it wouldn't worry me, I've made it very clear why. That's my choice agree don't agree I don't really care. Find me a crippled pup sired by the dog in question even better a few and I will possibly review my position but right now I see no reason to change it.

[druimmuir]

How many of that 600 have been hip scored?

If I were to be looking for a foundation bitch I, personally, would want something which wasn't closely related to a dog throwing poor hips however good the lines were. There is such a poor history of hip scoring in ESS could anyone be sure their own line is clear and when it comes to line breeding from your bitch / dog where would you go to be sure of not throwing pups with poor joints?

I agree though that there is no guarantee even with fully tested parents but we should be doing the best we can, perhaps?

And of course it must be the dogs fault? What about the bitch? He produced over 600 dogs and now because of two results people are saying they don't want him in their lines?!

What about the FTCH FTW FTAW he produced and the countless excellent shooting dogs. Are they all crippled? No and I've neither seen or heard of one that is.

The best we can? That means looking at the full picture, everything, not a few figures on mykc. Type ability suitability for purpose. If some people get their way health testing will destroy the dogs we have today. We could breed genetically perfect dogs unfit for purpose. However genes can mutate so your clear clear dogs could one day produce carriers!

As I said its personal choice, I was asked why it wouldn't worry me, I've made it very clear why. That's my choice agree don't agree I don't really care. Find me a crippled pup sired by the dog in question even better a few and I will possibly review my position but right now I see no reason to change it.

well said Simon, had a conversation only yesterday that focussed round the fact we will soon land up with the healthiest dogs ever, but that can't find their own dinners in the bowls infront of them.....testing has it's place but it's getting obsessional

[Judy]

I only asked!

Were the two poor hip scores from pups out of the same bitch? If the genes leading to a predisposition for poor hips is recessive, as seems likely, then both parents have to carry it.

However brilliant the parents are the pup is fecked for work if it has poor hips, as you said, think of the whole picture not just one aspect. If faced with a choice of a pup from Boris or one from parents which were hard mouthed / whined / had poor temperaments then Boris would be my choice but if there were numerous ESS with good health results / temperaments / working ability then I would give him miss.

The picture is clearer with breeds which are routinely scored and this makes it much easier to decide on where to go, hopefully Spaniels will be amongst them one day.

[beechessam]

I only asked!

Were the two poor hip scores from pups out of the same bitch? If the genes leading to a predisposition for poor hips is recessive, as seems likely, then both parents have to carry it.

However brilliant the parents are the pup is fecked for work if it has poor hips, as you said, think of the whole picture not just one aspect. If faced with a choice of a pup from Boris or one from parents which were hard mouthed / whined / had poor temperaments then Boris would be my choice but if there were numerous ESS with good health results / temperaments / working ability then I would give him miss.

The picture is clearer with breeds which are routinely scored and this makes it much easier to decide on where to go, hopefully Spaniels will be amongst them one day.

You'd struggle to find a pedigree without him, his parents, siblings or progeny in it.

I can honestly see a time when the breed is split again, just a the show springer, lab, cocker bares no resemblance to today's dogs in the field, we could end up with a divide of health tested plugs that do not resemble their cousins working in the field!

So where now for some bizarre reason people refer to Cockers as WCS maybe they will be HTESS HTC HTLR in time. A three way split

[Judy]

I wouldn't know as I don't have much of an interest in ESS but if that is the case its an sad state of affairs for the breed.

Most FT Labs are health tested, they are not plugs so your argument does not hold water, unless all decent Springers have hereditary defects?

[beechessam]

I wouldn't know as I don't have much of an interest in ESS but if that is the case its an sad state of affairs for the breed.

Most FT Labs are health tested, they are not plugs so your argument does not hold water, unless all decent Springers have hereditary defects?

No more so than your Cockers but people are becoming so preoccupied by health tests that ability type and purpose are being forgotten and that's both spaniel types.

[dandogman]

How many of that 600 have been hip scored?

If I were to be looking for a foundation bitch I, personally, would want something which wasn't closely related to a dog throwing poor hips however good the lines were. There is such a poor history of hip scoring in ESS could anyone be sure their own line is clear and when it comes to line breeding from your bitch / dog where would you go to be sure of not throwing pups with poor joints?

I agree though that there is no guarantee even with fully tested parents but we should be doing the best we can, perhaps?

And of course it must be the dogs fault? What about the bitch? He produced over 600 dogs and now because of two results people are saying they don't want him in their lines?!

What about the FTCH FTW FTAW he produced and the countless excellent shooting dogs. Are they all crippled? No and I've neither seen or heard of one that is.

The best we can? That means looking at the full picture, everything, not a few figures on mykc. Type ability suitability for purpose. If some people get their way health testing will destroy the dogs we have today. We could breed genetically perfect dogs unfit for purpose. However genes can mutate so your clear clear dogs could one day produce carriers!

As I said its personal choice, I was asked why it wouldn't worry me, I've made it very clear why. That's my choice agree don't agree I don't really care. Find me a crippled pup sired by the dog in question even better a few and I will possibly review my position but right now I see no reason to change it.

Very good point

[Judy]

The breeds will only subdivide again if those who trial don't health test and those who health test do not breed for working ability. (Not to mention those who neither test their dogs in the field nor health test but just breed for money).

However, is it wrong to be looking for good working dogs which are tested? Can't we have everything in the one dog? Just because some health test their dogs it doesn't mean they are breeding plugs does it?

[Rothievale]

There are plenty of fully health tested FTCh labs out there with lots of natural ability so why can't that be the case for spaniels? Especially as the health problems facing spaniels seems to be a lot less. I think if you speak to those guys in America and Sweden who have imported certain lines from britain and suffered hip problems you might see a bigger picture. Sorry to be argumentative but there are plenty of good lines of successful trialling spaniels without Craighar Boris in. Spaniels have a massive pain threshold, not many are hip scored, there may be more out there with a problem/high hip score than we think but they learn to cope because they are spaniels. Just a thought.

[beechessam]

There are plenty of fully health tested FTCh labs out there with lots of natural ability so why can't that be the case for spaniels? Especially as the health problems facing spaniels seems to be a lot less. I think if you speak to those guys in America and Sweden who have imported certain lines from britain and suffered hip problems you might see a bigger picture. Sorry to be argumentative but there are plenty of good lines of successful trialling spaniels without Craighar Boris in. Spaniels have a massive pain threshold, not many are hip scored, there may be more out there with a problem/high hip score than we think but they learn to cope because they are spaniels. Just a thought.

I don't disagree Helen and in an ideal world we will have both. My point is we need to be careful we don't sacrifice one in pursuit of the other.