In fairness to Alice, my understanding of the shooting scene & the general ready accessibility to shooting in some/many parts of Ireland is that it is markedly different to what most experience in the UK, because most in the UK lack the access & opportunity to regularly shoot over their own dogs, or have their dogs shot over (as opposed to beating & picking-up etc., which are distinct disciplines in their own right), so are often arguing from different ball parks (disciplines) when it comes to expectations.
Hello all having read the previous posts and being from ireland and using my spaniels only for rough shooting at least 3-4 days a week as my job allows ,from sep right through to the end of march my dogs get worked very hard in very hard cover , from my experience a good spaniel is a good spaniel its lineage on paper doesnt change that in ireland there are still plenty of hard going stylish dogs trainable and with stamina in both circles yes there are the scrawny puny runts around but it is not as prevalent as is being expressed and with all this talk not always but usually by people lacking in experience and knowladge there has opened up a new market in ireland for "oldtype big strong big boned spaniels with bucket loads of drive and stamina" something said to be lacki g in the modern day spaniel, so now everybody wants an old type spaniel and are willing to pay and wait to pay for these old lines when in fact they go back to field trial breedingin the first place, ive experience with both and ive a small field trial bred bitch fast stylish hard going will hunt all day only thing is the speed gets lost after a few weeks of hard going and from what ive seen most of the trial spaniels in ireland are still good sized good goin dogs just shop around ,, 30 dogs in 3 years something wrong with that my friend the odds just dont add up ive gone through 4 the last 7 years and still have 3 of them 1 was knocked down by a car all from trial breeding somewhere in the pedigree different types different attributes but all well able for the job of rough shooting anywhere in lreland its obvious a small runty spaniel will not be able for the rock and cover found here but most average sized spaniel will not find it a problem giving they have the drive to hunt it in the first place so dont go believing that all irish trial spaniels are small driveless , stamina lacking and soft while some may be most are not ,, still plenty of good strong lines left here and though im a rough shooting man I will always go to proven trial dogs because they have shown they have the speed style and can handle the cover and still take training its more to do with the bitch your bringing , I was at a training day last week and pleased to say most of the bitches there would pass for dogs.. im no expert but im just sick of listening to lads complain about trial dogs being this or that when thats not what ive experienced ,, a good dog has not a bad size nor a bad colour
Interesting. Do you find any discernible difference between dogs from Irish FT breeding as compared with dogs from 'UK' FT breeding, or do you just stick to Irish bred dogs?
Naj
Sorry, just noticed your previous thread regarding your problem with the Holly Drive x Birdrowe dog. With respect, have you been around the Irish spaniel scene long enough to have been able to make comparisons between todays dogs & those of 25 years back, because, as I understand it, that is at the crux of the argument being made by the op & some other members.
Howya naj sorry I should of stated im not around long enough to comment on the dogs from 25 years ago , compared to now only the last 9 years or so have I been working spaniels and ive no experience with any dogs bred in england ,,, but what I was saying is that there are still plenty of good hard going trainable spaniels in all shapes and sizes and in both trialling and working hands for a man to go through 30 dogs in 3 years is beyond my belief and there is no 1 or 2 people keeping the old type alive especially not without line breeding imo, sometimes fresh eyes are good and im glad to say that young bitch fromhollydrive theo is after coming on very well will hunt all day but as I said paces herself after a week or 2 of briars but her pace comes back after some time off ,,
snipe02 wrote:Howya naj sorry I should of stated im not around long enough to comment on the dogs from 25 years ago , compared to now only the last 9 years or so have I been working spaniels and ive no experience with any dogs bred in england ,,, but what I was saying is that there are still plenty of good hard going trainable spaniels in all shapes and sizes and in both trialling and working hands for a man to go through 30 dogs in 3 years is beyond my belief and there is no 1 or 2 people keeping the old type alive especially not without line breeding imo, sometimes fresh eyes are good and im glad to say that young bitch fromhollydrive theo is after coming on very well will hunt all day but as I said paces herself after a week or 2 of briars but her pace comes back after some time off ,,
First of all snipe I would like to thank you for your contribution.You are the only Irish contributor so far not in broad agreement with the views expressed by myself and the other Irish contributors.I did explain in a further post the reasons I went through about 30 dogs,had you read this you might not have been so incredulous.Your admitted relative inexperience might explain your views that so obviously conflict with almost every contributor on this forum,and I might add the majority of spaniel people in Ireland.Also I never suggested that 1 or 2 people are keeping the old type alive,you should go back to my very first contribution to read and try to fully understand the views expressed.
I'm an Irish spaniel person with an Irish spaniel...based in the uk! My dog is bigger/old type and very hard going but not too hard headed to train although not soft by any means. The Irish dogs I've seen (Wicklow/Tipperary being the areas I'd shoot when at home) tend to be bigger and, well, wilder. I am very new to shooting thou having only got involved in the last few years.
Relative inexperience fair enough but I know how to get my hands on a good spaniel without having to go through 30 of them I never denied that there wasnt a lot of puny spaniels I acknowladged it ive seen em myself and like you would pass such an animal on but what what I did say was that there are still plenty big strong hard going dogs around both trialling and kept for rough shooting and I feel its crazy for someone to go through that many dogs unless maybe you were looking for a dog that would cut it at the top of the trialling game I could see how someone like that could get through dogs im just saying it how I see it sure im only learning myself but that does not mean my view is invalid and sometimes experience does not equal knowladge
Anyone who goes through 30 dogs on order to find a good one is either not looking at the right dogs or way to impatient to be effective in training or even recognising a half decent dog.
Springfield Pointers wrote:Anyone who goes through 30 dogs on order to find a good one is either not looking at the right dogs or way to impatient to be effective in training or even recognising a half decent dog.
Having hunted for the last 30 years with springer spaniels, Ithink I can recognise a half decent dog as you describe them.I had only three dogs during the first 25 of those years two of them lived till they they were over 10 years old, the third dog died at age 5 of pyothorax.I then bought a succession of different pups from different breeders,none of whom were a patch on my original three.The one thing they all had in common was a modern trial pedigree,coincidence,maybe,but I dont think so.Research brought me in touch with many many spaniel people,and without exception they had all had similar experiences,Iam not the first to bring up this subject,many articles on the same theme have appeared in the shooting publications both in Ireland and the uk written by those far more knowledgeable than me.Do you think I just make these points for the craic? This is a very worriesome trend I would contend, and disrespecting and trying to denigrate my views is hardly constructive.
snipe02 wrote:Relative inexperience fair enough but I know how to get my hands on a good spaniel without having to go through 30 of them I never denied that there wasnt a lot of puny spaniels I acknowladged it ive seen em myself and like you would pass such an animal on but what what I did say was that there are still plenty big strong hard going dogs around both trialling and kept for rough shooting and I feel its crazy for someone to go through that many dogs unless maybe you were looking for a dog that would cut it at the top of the trialling game I could see how someone like that could get through dogs im just saying it how I see it sure im only learning myself but that does not mean my view is invalid and sometimes experience does not equal knowladge
I never suggested your view was in any way invalid, in fact I thanked you for your contribution,if I remember correctly.
I set the bar high when it comes to a hunting spaniel right enough,maybe I was spoiled by my first three,super hunting dogs that would hunt all day and face any cover,my experience of the modern dog has been largely negative,and this experience is now common as borne out by contributors to this forum and others.
my understanding of the shooting scene & the general ready accessibility to shooting in some/many parts of Ireland is that it is markedly different to what most experience in the UK, because most in the UK lack the access & opportunity to regularly shoot over their own dogs, or have their dogs shot over (as opposed to beating & picking-up etc., which are distinct disciplines in their own right), so are often arguing from different ball parks (disciplines) when it comes to expectations. 
