Guidance on the procedure for judging...

[Rothievale]

A lot of them are! That's the problem! I've seen well bred pups hunt further than some of these winning dogs....That's why more and more are going to Ireland to find a stud dog that gets about a bit

[David]

So why don't you all do it?

do what, get out and hunt? theres plenty of things you could say about my dogs im sure but hunting as though they were on a short bit of string isnt one of them lol

Wasn't aimed specifically at you, but if the shoeshiners are winning, why doesn't everyone adopt that method?

I think the concern is that the J reg's aren't being applied correctly. A spaniel is bred to hunt the wind and on a typical shooting day it would be allowed to to this. Those keeping dogs close do so to prevent missing game, which is fair enough if that's what they want to do and I don't have a problem with that, but that style shouldn't get credit over a dog that works the wind correctly and doesn't miss game.

[trekmoor]

My cockers do 15 yards a side nae bother ! 40 years ago my spaniel trialing pals were talking about and ridiculing dogs that "found with their feet." I began spaniel training again with my cocker Charlie only a few years ago and was training him a 15 yard distance but was told he should be hunting at 5 to 10 yards. I thought at the time ...."To hell with trialing if that is the case, I will continue to hunt dogs out to distances that I find useful."

A few years ago one Scottish judge who is even older than I am got so annoyed by a competitor with a very close hunting dog that he told him to take his dog home if that was it's hunting range ! That judge hadn't changed his mind in the forty years since he first talked about "finding with their feet."

Hunting a windscreen wiper pattern regardless of the wind really shocked me when I first saw it in a spaniel test I competed in a few years ago ....but the judges that day seemed to like it. I like dogs and I use/work dogs because they have a better nose than I have in front of their faces. Clockwork, windscreen wiper patterns regardless of wind direction have very little to do with nosework.

I very much hope the wheel has begun to turn full circle back to when dogs were expected to use their noses as well as their feet to find game. This is the first bit of sense to come out of the K.C. in quite some time !

Wullie

[t jack]

Try letting a dog "get out" on ground with rabbits present and see how long it takes to miss game, whilst I can see the point many spaniels who "get out" are doing so on pheasants and half the time aren't flushing the birds off their nose, the birds are getting up by there own accord through the noise an commotion of the dog running back and forth, im quite sure those who hunt their spaniels close could easily let them get out, could the same be said for those who let theirs get out?

[Old dog]

This close windscreen wiper fashion i think stems from the handler not having trust in there dogs to work at distance that suits the ground and wind direction , and in trials if spaniels where allowed to work in there natural way there will be less for the judge to see

[Rothievale]

I won my first trial, a rabbit trial under Malcolm Taylor (author of this article) and Spam, against lots of tight hunting white flashy rabbity bitches with a dog who was mainly liver. I was told I won it because I allowed my dog to hunt a backwind beat properly. He worked the wind beautifully and was a tremendous gamefinder but unfortunately became hard on pheasants. I have seen many a dog kept really tight that still misses rabbits because it hasn't been allowed to work the wind or interfered with so much that its not using its nose and subsequently it stumbles upon rabbits the top guys who are hunting their dogs super close still pass rabbits......so what does that tell you?

[vixen.]

I was under the impression that if you have trained your dog to a suitable standard it should treat the ground and wind accordingly. I always let my dogs work to the guns. If you're worried about them missing ground, stand still until you're satisfied your dog has investigated it sufficiently, there's no need to crawl around 2ft behind it . To be honest I was more interested in the point about proper treatment of the wind not always being credited. That's the bigger issue IMO. It's a subjective sport, one man's trash is another man's treasure anyway, I'll crawl back in my hole since my dogs are wild

[Judy]

Try letting a dog "get out" on ground with rabbits present and see how long it takes to miss game, whilst I can see the point many spaniels who "get out" are doing so on pheasants and half the time aren't flushing the birds off their nose, the birds are getting up by there own accord through the noise an commotion of the dog running back and forth, im quite sure those who hunt their spaniels close could easily let them get out, could the same be said for those who let theirs get out?

The one and only Spaniel Test I watched had all wiper dogs and I still saw a bunny pop out behind the line and run through the spectators and I had a similar experience at a walked up rabbit mock trial, I had stopped for my dog to empty and she flushed out a bunny when we were walking to catch up, that was retrievers though so the rabbits were being flushed by the walking line rather than hunting dogs. My point being if you miss a tight sitter you'll never know.

As for pheasants, round here they run to the first bit of cover and stay there until something gets them out whether it be beater's stick or dog but they are "tame" released birds.

I trained two of mine to hunt close if needs be, as I have only needed this facility a few times in five years I haven't bothered to teach the hunt at all to the third Cocker. None of them would trial as they are neither fast enough nor would they be steady to shot and fall, they stop to flush which is all I need for blanking in or walking with the beaters if I am after a runner which has gone into the next drive. The rest of the time they hooley about the woods looking for shot game, much more fun!

[Naj]

Try letting a dog "get out" on ground with rabbits present and see how long it takes to miss game, whilst I can see the point many spaniels who "get out" are doing so on pheasants and half the time aren't flushing the birds off their nose, the birds are getting up by there own accord through the noise an commotion of the dog running back and forth, im quite sure those who hunt their spaniels close could easily let them get out, could the same be said for those who let theirs get out?

Hell, TJ, how do you think they managed to find rabbits without missing them back in the day before this current trend for 'shoe shiners'. I've shot thousands of rabbits over spaniels working a 30 yard beat (rough pasture) & you don't miss anymore than if they were hunting over your shoes. With pheasants in open cover there's even less reason to work them tighter. If game is scarce then you also need a reasonable beat if you are to find anything. After all, the dogs are still covering the same ground as the shoe shufflers, plus some, they just naturally work the ground tighter if there's a lot of game about & you only give them the chance. You could equally argue that it is the shoe shufflers that are missing ground, & therefore game, & should be penalised for not covering a proper beat. I find it worrying that a 15 yard cast either side is now considered as letting a dog 'get out', I would have thought it a normal beat. It's the job of judges/handlers/guns to give the dog the time to work the beat properly. It's also the job of the judge to evaluate the quality of the find & give due credit to a dog that finds its game positively rather than bumping it. If a judge isn't capable of making such discriminations on the quality of the dogwork then they surely shouldn't be judging.

Naj

[Rothievale]

I agree Naj (normally do) a good spaniel is like a good pointer, it will change its hunting attitude dependent on the game and conditions. A decent pointer or setter will hunt tight lines when the scent is poor and take bigger bites when the scent is good. A decent spaniel will tighten itself up on ground scent when it realises rabbits are the quarry, if there's birds running on then it will open up and cut them off. The problems start where there are rabbits sitting tight and pheasants running on but if you let your dog work the wind then you give it a much better opportunity to find game efficiently than if you constantly interfere or try and do the hunting for it!