Guidance on the procedure for judging...

[Judy]

Naj I agree! The best dog is one which has it all, speed, style and natural ability, I was asking really whether a slightly slower dog which does the job correctly should be marked down in favour of a dog which is working badly but with speed and style, which would you want to use on a shoot day? Which would you put up as a Judge?

[Naughty Boy]

Weren't older training methods always advocating figure of 8 patterns, but in the last 15 yrs? Moved over to wiper pattern?

[trekmoor]

Older training methods ? Take a look at the Keith Erlandson books , they give diagrams of the "perfect pattern" for each wind direction. There is no figure of eight stuff there and no downwind turning either. The first of those two books was written before I'd even been to a test or a trial and that was a long time ago.
The old timers didn't go in for figures of eight hunting , they liked dogs to hunt to the wind and to the handler.

Wullie

[Judy]

Well said, old man.

[Cynic]

How about you agree on the ruling that best suits your dog overlap this with the best comment from your best mate that best suits your dog
Mix that up with what best suits your belief that, that is right then send your comments to the kennel club committee

[buddon ness]

My cockers do 15 yards a side nae bother ! 40 years ago my spaniel trialing pals were talking about and ridiculing dogs that "found with their feet." I began spaniel training again with my cocker Charlie only a few years ago and was training him a 15 yard distance but was told he should be hunting at 5 to 10 yards. I thought at the time ...."To hell with trialing if that is the case, I will continue to hunt dogs out to distances that I find useful."

A few years ago one Scottish judge who is even older than I am got so annoyed by a competitor with a very close hunting dog that he told him to take his dog home if that was it's hunting range ! That judge hadn't changed his mind in the forty years since he first talked about "finding with their feet."

Hunting a windscreen wiper pattern regardless of the wind really shocked me when I first saw it in a spaniel test I competed in a few years ago ....but the judges that day seemed to like it. I like dogs and I use/work dogs because they have a better nose than I have in front of their faces. Clockwork, windscreen wiper patterns regardless of wind direction have very little to do with nosework.

I very much hope the wheel has begun to turn full circle back to when dogs were expected to use their noses as well as their feet to find game. This is the first bit of sense to come out of the K.C. in quite some time !

Spot on Wullie not only have I seen dogs only hunt 5yds either way but the handlers walk with them.. Better leaving the dog at home and gie the handler a stick nae chance of the bugger running in I don't have enough budget for beaters being 10yds apart so need dogs that can cover ground while under control...

[Miff]

Agree with you Wullie. Only trained my first cocker recently but now realise that in the beginning I paid far too much importance to the windscreen wiper pattern and not enough to letting the dog work the wind. Now on my next cocker (yes, addicted!) and wont worry so much about 'trying' to get this pattern as I can now see that a half decent dog will do this, given experience, without interference from me. The wind is so important and the dog will hunt the wind quite naturally; so if it is a back wind I would hope and expect my dog to pull forward and work back. I see handlers trying to stop their dog from doing this and keep it in tight - despite the wind direction. I have learned a lot with the first and hope to improve with the second.

[Andrew]

So Perhaps modern day field trial training isn't the best way forward. I look forward to the new range of DVD's

[Nickheref]

Naj I agree! The best dog is one which has it all, speed, style and natural ability, I was asking really whether a slightly slower dog which does the job correctly should be marked down in favour of a dog which is working badly but with speed and style, which would you want to use on a shoot day? Which would you put up as a Judge?

The best dog should have everything but is this not the same as a very quick dog who runs straight past a simple marked retrieve and needs to be handled back onto it as opposed to the slightly slower dog who marked it properly and is therefore back with the retrieve in the same time or slightly quicker with no handling?

Surely if a dog is working badly no matter how fast he should not be placed above a dog doing the job properly if it has decent pace ie not plodding.
The devil is as ever in the detail as to what exactly is slightly slower and the belief that pace is everything.Isn't this exactly what the judges are supposed to sort out. It was the over emphasis of one particular feature/trait and poor wording of the rules coupled with owners desire to win at all costs that led to some of the problems seen with some breeds in the showing world.

[Stacia]

Having had GSPs who work the wind, I could never understand many spaniel handlers working the windscreen pattern with apparently no idea about wind!