American Spaniel Trials

[Naj]

We don't need to handle our dogs on marked retrieves. The only time anyone would handle a dog on a 'mark' is if the dog has miss-marked, the same as in your trials. If a dog had to be handled on a (reasonable) bird that the dog has marked then it would be penalised. On an un-marked blind retrieve, then you'd obviously have to handle it & due credit would be given to how well this was accomplished - preferably the minimum of handling. In the UK this may happen when a dog is taken across to pick a 'blind' retrieve that was shot over the brace mate, & which the judge doesn't require for his dog. Not sure if that would apply in the States.

Also interested to hear if a dog flushed a rabbit in an American trial whether the guns would shoot it.

Naj

[Gundogguy]

Also interested to hear if a dog flushed a rabbit in an American trial whether the guns would shoot it.

Naj

Naj I gunned trials, both Springer and Cocker for over ten years trials that were held on either private or public land.
I only witnessed 2 rabbits being flushed and no they were not shot. The dogs still have to be steady and not give chase. We just do not have the rabbits population here in the Mid- western states that you folks have in the UK.
Our trials are more about equity than the bag. By planting game it allows for more dogs to participate and be given and equitable opportunity to show the judge what they have.

How many really good dogs in the UK have never got to run in trial, let alone make Field Champion??

Think of the last trial you attended as a either a contestant or spectator. Lets say that in the 1st series 50 dogs ran in 25 braces. 2 and 3 bird contacts per dog After some deliberation the judges called back 40 dogs for a second series 2 and 3 birds per dog. and at the end of the 2nd series the judges called back 15 dogs for a third and series, with 2-3 contacts per dog, after which the 3rd series that the judges would pick 4 dogs for placement and of which 1 would be named the winner. As game keeper for this event I would between 300-400 pheasants available to properly run this event, the one thing as game keeper here in the states "You do not want to run out birds".

[Gundogguy]

Fair enough, I accept that not all trials are the same. Given the sheer market in the US there are many facets to working dog trials over there. I have seen retriever competitions where there are stands set up for people to sit not unlike a golf tournament and the dogs run out on a finely manicured course much to the delight of spectators. I appreciate that there are many other competitions. Excuse my cynicism.

Quite possible SP you are referring to the events known as "Super Retriever Contest" which some time do get some air time on ESPN or the outdoor channel.
These are usually cash prize events, however they are not Kennel Club Championship events
http://superretrieverseries.com/
They are merely an activity that may be fun to participate in. Especially if there is a pay-off of some sort. But they are not the general mainstream activity for the retriever folks.

[Naj]

Thanks for that, GDGuy. Spaniel trials in the UK are restricted by numbers & your name has to be 'drawn' out the hat for you to enter, presuming the stake is over-subscribed. Presumably yours aren't. We have to limit numbers because we have to work on liberated/wild game, & also are shooting somebody else's birds rather than the 'club's' birds. It would be illegal, in any event, to plant birds & then shoot them.

Naj

[trekmoor]

So far in spaniel trials in Britain I have never seen a dog required to make a 75 yards marked retrieve. My main moan about the last two Cocker Championships I attended as a spectator was that any retrieve of more than about 25 yards was extremely rare. I can remember thinking that if it had been a training session with my own dogs I would have walked out the 10 - 20 yards myself and would have handpicked the birds. Two guns were fired at many of the birds that got up to make sure they definitely came down.

It was not sporting shooting but it wasn't meant to be, the trials were about dogs not about shooting. Personally I do not think this sort of shooting tests a dog's retrieving abilities well at all but that's just me ......maybe ?

The thing that astonished me the most during a film of an American spaniel trial was that a gun actually ran after a dog that was "hot-lining" a pheasant in order to be in range to bring the bird down ! That would be a big NO-NO for both the gun and the dog in Britain.

Wullie

[Comet]

Ya Willie & Naj if I was a millionaire I'd send you guys over here for a couple weeks to see trials, go rough shooting & have a good time. the British guys could then better explain the differences in trials & you guys could experience it for yourself. Naj Ive never seen a rabbit flushed at a trial so can't say whether it would be shot. Rabbits are hunted w/beagles mostly. I have shot a couple of hares, while grouse hunting in Maine. Yes Willie if the dog is getting birdie & out of range a gunner will run fwd. Here are 2 links to articles by Keith Erlandson visiting trials over here. http://glencoekennels.net/Training/Keit ... 01998.html
http://glencoekennels.net/Training/RockyArticle.jpg

[farmboy]

Here you go S.P.,a manicured gun dog course,.....as we know it. You have been watching the "made for television" version,you picked the only one on T.V. to study.

Just a bunch of "Good ole boys" with their duck hunting buddy. These are not even the big field trial dogs,although we did have a retired FC-AFC dog drop down and run hunt tests. He really enjoyed himself!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCWRIVfRnN4

[Naj]

Hope you've started saving up, Comet.

Wullie, it's interesting how the Americans have adapted differently to working a moving bird. From a practical (rough) shooting point of view it is a great asset to have a dog that works out a moving bird when it hits the fresh scent-line, especially when birds are thin on the ground, or on planted game that has moved, as in an American trial. We don't like to see it in our spaniels but this is one of the great strengths of the (German?) HPR, that it will switch from air scent to ground scent when in proximity of game & work the fresh line until it has the bird held. If you look at the old books it is the Americans that have held true to how we used to do it, for it was once seen in the UK as an enhancement for a spaniel to work the line of a moving bird once it was found.

Naj

[Gundogguy]

So far in spaniel trials in Britain I have never seen a dog required to make a 75 yards marked retrieve. My main moan about the last two Cocker Championships I attended as a spectator was that any retrieve of more than about 25 yards was extremely rare. I can remember thinking that if it had been a training session with my own dogs I would have walked out the 10 - 20 yards myself and would have handpicked the birds. Two guns were fired at many of the birds that got up to make sure they definitely came down.

It was not sporting shooting but it wasn't meant to be, the trials were about dogs not about shooting. Personally I do not think this sort of shooting tests a dog's retrieving abilities well at all but that's just me ......maybe ?

The thing that astonished me the most during a film of an American spaniel trial was that a gun actually ran after a dog that was "hot-lining" a pheasant in order to be in range to bring the bird down ! That would be a big NO-NO for both the gun and the dog in Britain.

Wullie

I believe two years ago I viewed a Paul French vid of the Cocker Champs held at Sandringham (sp). My wife and I watched it together, well at least for a short time. Nancy is an A panel judge both in Springer's and Cockers. The marking abiltity demonstrated by dogs was, well to say the least not very good. and this was done under very routine shot placements.
The amount of handling was very burdensome to watch. She quit watching and went about her day. It was as if the guns were afraid to miss so shots were taken way to close and thus marking ability was never demonstrated, in addition the dogs seemed be conditioned to pop and even look for a handle whilst out on the retrieve. I did finish watching the vid hoping this was done in the editing room and that marking and gunning would improve, sadly it did not.
70-100yard marks (without handling) are quite common place along with dogs finishing retrieves of cripples at these distances in the American Spaniel trial scene. I do not believe our system here in the states is BETTER, it is just different. We run the same dogs on each side of the Atlantic we just go about our conditioning different. and arrive at different results.

Concerning the video of the gun running to get in better position to shoot. A very isolated situation. having gunned trials for some 10 years I have taken a few quick steps to move around a tree or bush, but run with a loaded gun in the field with dogs and other people never. I certainly would like to see that video of a gun running at an Spaniel event.

(Not to hi jack Wullie's thread) We just received notice that our little Buccleuch bitch, Zeta won the Long Island ESS trial in New York yesterday 04-10-14 Entry was 33 Open dogs.
It is Zeta 2nd placement during the 2014 autumn series. She received a 3rd place finish at Susquehanna Valley Pennsylvania on 18-9-14. She is 27 months old!

[trekmoor]

I didn't expect this thread to run to two pages. It is certainly good to get a different viewpoint or two on trials.

Naj..... Yes the GSP's do make a very good job of switching from air scent to footscent on moving birds but not all HPR's work in that way. I find that brittanies are far less inclined to follow footscents , they lose patience and often resume hunting in order to relocate by wind scent.....or at least my brittanies do !

Well done with the dog at the trial G.D.G.

Wullie