Sturdy Type ESS

[RjMcb]

I thought the idea behind trials was to breed the best dogs that could be passed down to the shoooting community as alround dogs.
.

Eh? The idea behind trials is to breed the best dogs for trials. The shooting community buy a well trained dog at the end of that process. Trialing is not there to supply shooters."

I was wondering why the breeds popularity has declined

[RjMcb]

I don't put a coat on my trial dog because he needs it, I put it on so he's warm and dry and gives him the best chance of going bang off the lead on both runs. On a shoot day I don't bother.

Exactly, I used to carry my golf clubs till I got a trolley... People bang on relentlessly about the good old dogs. Progress or fashions, or different demands has changed them....

I did not start this topic to bang on about good old dogs I have been away from gundogs for quite a few year now
I am back now looking for spaniels for rough shooting and a little wildfowling here in Ireland. To date I have not seen any dogs
advertised other than thin coated, wipet like specimens If this is progress ,fashion etc as you say and seem to approve of Well
Its not what I am looking for in a spaniel, everyone has his own personal preference and needs.

[eastie]

Has the popularity declined? If you're wildfowling would you not be better with a lab?

[RjMcb]

According to the KC figures. Yes If I was only wildfowling

[Judy]

More likely to have declined because Cockers have become fashionable.

You originally asked for a big ESS capable of trialling, I wonder if it would be asking too much to expect it to go rough shooting and wildfowling as well as Trialling?

[RjMcb]

Cockers are a breed none of my shooting mates have maybe where you are its different.
I think I asked what an old style larger spaniel would compare with the modern variety at least thats what I meant
I certainly remember dogs that where allrounders Unfortunately I also see quite a few who are not capable now.

[WGD]

When you talk about taking a spaniel wildfowling (not directly at RjMcb) are you not turning the whole situation on its head. The moan, albeit not applicable as far as I am concerned, is that "modern" springers are no use compared to the old fashioned springers that could do it all. But is a do it all spaniel really what the breed is about?

Personally I wouldn't want to own any spaniel that would be happy to sit quiet and patient for hours on end when wildfowling like labs do. Any spaniel that will willingly do that could be deemed to have been bred too big, too slow and too patient to do what spaniels do best, hunt cover and produce game for guns.

Begs the questions, are modern spaniels too small, or were the memorably large old fashioned spaniels too big, or are we arguing about an issue that doesn't exist as there has always been large and small lines within the same breed?

[Judy]

Does anyone breed ESS that look like spaniels did in the past and would be capable of trialing with the weedie type
available today

Cockers are a breed none of my shooting mates have maybe where you are its different.
I think I asked what an old style larger spaniel would compare with the modern variety at least thats what I meant
I certainly remember dogs that where allrounders Unfortunately I also see quite a few who are not capable now.

Your mates may not want Cockers but the reason the KC registrations of ESS has gone down is most likely because Cockers are the in thing and people are buying them instead of Springers, now, whether that is a fashion statement or because Springers have become less of an all round dog who knows?

At the end of the day there are big and little lines in both breeds and its all down to how you train the dog anyway. Some of my Cockers are better at sitting through a drive but they all hunt like err Cockers at the end of the drive. Find a litter that you like the parents of then train the pup to do what you want it to do.

If the dogs you see working aren't capable of doing what you want it could be for a number of reasons, poor conditioning, poor training, poor structural integrity - there are an awful lot of Springers with poor conformation, that doesn't help when it comes to their willingness to work hard in cover all day. If a dog isn't well put together it isn't going to work as well nor as long as one which is. Size alone doesn't count apart from the chill factor out wildfowling and that could be overcome with a neoprene vest if you could get a proper Spaniel to sit still for that long.

[Naj]

Having had both I would say that the current trend for cockers is down to fashion. I love cockers but they have their limitations. I also worry that some think a springer shouldn't be capable of sitting quietly through a flight or drive. This, surely, is a sign of a sound temperament & what we should be aiming for in our breeding. There is no correlation between a quiet temperament & lack of drive/fire. I've had plenty of springers that were hard hunters but were capable of sitting quietly when asked. Given that the majority of springers must be used in the beating line or picking-up, where there is lots of hanging around to do, it would be highly detrimental to breed for dogs that couldn't withstand that basic requirement without compromising drive.

No one has yet to say what older dogs we are talking about so it's difficult to make comparisons. I've been kicking around the spaniel scene since the late '60s & there have always been trends in size & individual preferences on size within those trends. Some breeders have always prided themselves on turning out a certain stamp of dog & others have just gone with the current trend. The modern springer has never been easier to train but I believe that the fire is still there. Often when we are discussing these issues we are splitting hairs over the minutia of personal preferences. At the end of the day the dog finds a bird, it gets shot & then retrieved. Pretty simple stuff, really.

Since the op lives in Ireland it sounds like he is in luck for that appears to be the last bastion of the type of dog that he is looking for, according to some. There is a thread currently running on this very subject.

Naj

[trekmoor]

Personally if I wanted a dog that would do a good job in the beating line or picking up or sitting for long periods of time in hides waiting for pigeon , ducks or geese I'd buy a lab pup and train it as a spaniel.

Wullie