Need help, newcomer with a hard headed springer

[springloaded]

Hi all,
This is my first post and I apologize, for it will likely be a lengthy one. I Have been reading the site for a few moths now and I really enjoy it.

I am an amatuer from the states and I recently became the owner of a new springer pup, Riggs, only my second dog so far. Even with my novice eye I feared him to be a bit hard at a very young age. At only 3 and 4 months he would run off on his own, quite far away and come back whenever he pleased. I was worried, but under the advice of some of the professional trainers here I let him be, as to not pressure him at such a young age. well obviously, things only got worse from there . Now with him at 7 months, he cant be trusted off lead and is generally obsessed with hunting off on his own. Ive been able to make progress on some other areas of training, but not the bolting and general lack of interest in me while out in the field. Distressed, I did some deep research into his pedigree and it seems, as far as I can tell, the culprit is the bitches father who is Robinsmoor Frolic"sam". Strangely it was very difficult to find much on him and Robinsmoor blood in general.

Well,this weekend I decided I needed some hands on help from a local professional field trial trainer. A well regarded one at that. So we had a short session in which Riggs promptly decided to run off into the next field for 10 or 15 minutes. a little work with a clip wing pigeon seemed to keep his focus but not much. After some discussion he confirmed my worries in the breeding. The trainer personally knew Robinsmoor Frolics owner, and had spent some time with "Sam". He went on to tell me Sam was a Chronic runaway and a hard headed, selfish hunter and backed it up with some personal experiences.

So after his assessment, the trainer laid down some very upsetting news. In his judgement, the pup will likely never be trained to a decent standard without extensive professional training. He recommended that I immediately begin using an E-Collar (something I wanted to avoid). He expanded by saying the pup will likely need to be E- collared for his entire life or I would never be able to control, or get him to work close, him even with professional training. Then the real killer was when he recommended that I sell the dog and start over new with a different breeding.

As you can imagine this is all very upsetting. Ive already put a lot of work into this pup and had very high hopes. I also realize this is only one mans opinion. a man who happens to be in the business of getting paid to train dogs.

Now, I feel lost and a bit hurt and I could sure use any help I can get. I have contacted a few other trainers I can trust to get there opinions as well. I am not going to sell or give the dog away as he is already a part of the family. I will not give up, and I will do whatever it takes. I also find it hard to believe that it will be impossible for me to make an honest gundog out of this pup without spending thousands on training and/or electrocuting him to the moon.

Again sorry for the long post and I truly appreciate any help and advice.
Bret N.

[Naj]

Don't confuse a hard temperament with drive. If you've done little to put boundaries & limits on what the pup does when let off the leash over the previous seven months then the dog is only doing what it has been taught/allowed to do & the behaviour has become established. Traditionally, we didn't used to start serious training with a spaniel pup in the UK until it was 7 - 9 months old & physically & mentally mature, so there is hope yet. We don't have the benefit of seeing the dog but I'm afraid it's all down to hard graft, starting with the basics, then repetition, repetition, repetition. Get a good training manual (a UK one if all you can get in the States are based on the e-collar) & work systematically through it. And don't allow the pup to do any more free/self hunting.

Naj

[Rothievale]

Hi Bret

Glad you have finally posted on here, so sorry to hear you had a disappointing experience with the trainer. All credit to him for being honest though. I know we've 'talked' about this at great length via email and I really don't know how to advise, he sounds like a complete nightmare. Before people judge, Bret has tried very hard with this pup from what I can gather and has not allowed it to free hunt willy nilly but it has ended up doing that by buggering off on him! He's tried the long line but it still doesn't get his focus. I forgot one thing to say to you to try and establish the eye contact. Don't let him do anything he wants to do without him looking at you first, getting out of the truck, releasing him from a sit/stay, giving him his tea, so that he realises he doesn't get his own way until he looks at you. Now this can be extremely boring and time wasting, I gave someone a lesson once whose dog would give no eye contact, we waited 10minutes! Eventually he glanced at his owner and she immediately released him from his sit, after that he solely started to realise that he had to give eye contact first but it was a time consuming effort where she had to stay consistent.

For what it's worth, don't get too cut up about electric collars, they do have a place, my other half rescued a 9 month old gsp dog who all he wanted to Do was bugger off and run, the owner was going to put him down, she could do nothing with him and he got close to being flattened on the road several times. After sensible use of the electric collar he managed to train him and to this day he is his best grouse dog that he has had, sadly died a few weeks ago at 11 years old.

Before everyone jumps on me, I stand by the opinion that the e collar has it's place as a last resort and if it means a dog getting run over or shot for chasing sheep then it's a better alternative

[Naj]

Thanks for clarifying the situation, Helen. I'm of similar mind with the e-collar.

Naj

[vicky payne]

Rehome him to someone training search dogs? If that really isn't an option...

He sounds like a great pup with a lot of drive...? I'm sure there is a way forward with this dog (and probably without an e-collar) but it's going to need a very structured programme where you take control of EVERY moment of his day. Hand feeding can help build a bond. Use a crate or kennel to increase the value of time with you training ( a house dog can get attention 24-7 if you aren't careful making you less of an important resource; if he can get attention 'free' from other members of the household why would he work for your attention?). Remove all toys apart from a couple of chew toys. Get him VERY excited about tennis balls....attention on you is the only source of balls. Work on recall using a harness and long line/flexi lead so you can know he is safe and reward generously with his food for good recalls. Consider looking for help outside the gundog world; agility trainers have a lot of skill in harnessing high drive dogs. Once you have a basic bond you can then move to gundog work.

[WGD]

I've an 8 year old bitch with Robinsmoor Frolic not too far back in her breeding, she's the fastest, hardest going, best game finder in the kennel... she's also a completely selfish, hard headed, defiant shite of a dog. I made plenty of mistakes with her but I don't know even if I got her again now whether I could make a job of her.

I wish you the very best of luck, and warn you it will be a long road ahead. In my experience, the advice will be plentiful and varied. Few will really know what you are up against unless they have experienced a dog like this first hand, and there aren't that many around.

All I would say is go very, very slowly and you must train on game as that is where the red mist comes down and the dog works for itself and becomes impossible to hold. Guessing, I would think my dog would have been ready to be shot over about three years old with training drilled in to the point of boredom. If you get it right you'll have a hell of a dog.

[seppi]

It's not the dogs breeding that's at fault, or anyone else. The responsibility for basic obedience sits firmly with you.

The basic fundamentals of pet obedience are missing. Recall is a necessity, regardless of whether the dog is to be a gun dog or not.

"At only 3 and 4 months he would run off on his own"

"Newcomer with hard headed springer" Dogs fault?

"under the advice of some of the professional trainers" Trainers fault?

"the culprit is the bitches father" Poor bugger is getting the blame and he's been deed for donkeys years.

Sounds like you are going to give the lecky collar a go now. No doubt it will get the blame for something soon.

Take responsibility and learn how to connect with a dog, read a dog, and recognise the warning signs of something going awry.

[Cass]

Sounds like you need to seek a different trainer

[trekmoor]

I agree with Rothievale's post including using an e-collar on this dog . I also think the pro trainer you went to deserves respect for doing what he was paid to do and giving you an honest opinion , whether you like that opinion is another subject.

I am aware that in America it is common for spaniels to be allowed to hunt 25 yards out from the handler. I wouldn't let this particular pup get more than 20 FEET from me for a long time to come ! Get the pup working for you very close in and among every distraction you can think of before allowing it further out ..... a few feet at a time.

Having had a few real "bog-off" type dogs I know that even with pretty good obedience installed that kind of pup is still very hard to keep control of. IF such a dog can be trained it becomes a hell of a good dog to own but otherwise the dog will be a nightmare ....I.M.O.

Wullie

[Rothievale]

Bear in mind guys that I've had several springers like this and I wouldn't wish them upon my worst enemy! Totally soul destroying, one was a pet before I was into Gundogs and was a total bog off merchant, the other I managed to harness but through blood sweat and tears and thankfully she was a keen retriever which makes ALL the difference! This dog is not a keen retriever, in fact couldn't care less about it so this makes it extremely difficult for a novice handler to harness. He has already stated that it's one of the family and thus he doesn't want to get rid, he wouldn't make a good drugs or search dog anyway as he's not wanting to retrieve. My heart goes out to the guy.