Springer needs to relax
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esmerelda
- Member
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- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:45 pm
- Dogs: Archie
- Location: Glusburn Keighley
Springer needs to relax
I have a Springer who is obsessed with dummies, as soon as he sees a bag with them in he gets all tensed up and is wound up like a cork. His body is stressed and tight....He is almost 4 years old, and the obsession was created by a bad trainer I went to 2 years ago, I go to a trainer and he has worked hard with me to sort all the wrong training out.... On a shoot he is brilliant, not a problem working. Just this running in when a training....This being one of two problems I have with him. His drive is immense works till he drops if allowed. Anyones ideas are welcome.....
Re: Springer needs to relax
He's 4 years old & works fine on shoots - do you still need to work with dummies? 
Naj
Naj
Re: Springer needs to relax
Can obsession with dummies be instilled by a 'bad' trainer? Think we need some more info/background 
Re: Springer needs to relax
My thought would be to desensitize him. The association of retrieving and fun with the sight of the bag or dummies needs to be brought down a few notches. Allow the bag to be in his company more frequently but do no work. Coupled with that, when training, pick up the majority of retrieves...only allow him to go if he shows calmness. Basically, he has to be classically trained backwards.
No expert, but I think that would be my approach.
As a side note : If it became a serious problem then the "quiet drill" that trekmoor referred to in an earlier post could be looked at and tweaked for calmness instead of noise.
No expert, but I think that would be my approach.
As a side note : If it became a serious problem then the "quiet drill" that trekmoor referred to in an earlier post could be looked at and tweaked for calmness instead of noise.
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esmerelda
- Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:45 pm
- Dogs: Archie
- Location: Glusburn Keighley
Re: Springer needs to relax
Instilled in that was told to let him run in and never stopped, Activity for training was mostly dummy work no matter what we did. If he ran in when another dog was having their turn there was not recall, or stopping it happening....Basically they did not know how to stop it....I know that now. I made such a mistake, in believing and not listening to my gutt instinct. I changed trainer and have worked very hard with him. He does not run in for any dummy when I am on my own sits while i throw them round him, I do various exercises with the dummies and he does not touch them. In group training he just wants them all. He will sit quietly when on the lead and let the other dogs have them, off lead its a different kettle of fish... The desensitizing has been done for months, only 2 dummies allowed to retrieve all the others I pick up, we have had them laid round the room and he is not allowed them and does leave them alone.... The bag is sat around at home he never bothers it, its at the group training......we have tried him not getting them till last, getting them at the start,and whenever, nothing seems to work......
Will take a look at the trekmoor if I can find it..
Will take a look at the trekmoor if I can find it..
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esmerelda
- Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:45 pm
- Dogs: Archie
- Location: Glusburn Keighley
Re: Springer needs to relax
Newf can point me to the writing of trekmoor please...
Re: Springer needs to relax
Oh I get you!esmerelda wrote:Instilled in that was told to let him run in and never stopped, Activity for training was mostly dummy work no matter what we did. If he ran in when another dog was having their turn there was not recall, or stopping it happening....Basically they did not know how to stop it....I know that now. I made such a mistake, in believing and not listening to my gutt instinct. I changed trainer and have worked very hard with him. He does not run in for any dummy when I am on my own sits while i throw them round him, I do various exercises with the dummies and he does not touch them. In group training he just wants them all. He will sit quietly when on the lead and let the other dogs have them, off lead its a different kettle of fish... The desensitizing has been done for months, only 2 dummies allowed to retrieve all the others I pick up, we have had them laid round the room and he is not allowed them and does leave them alone.... The bag is sat around at home he never bothers it, its at the group training......we have tried him not getting them till last, getting them at the start,and whenever, nothing seems to work......
Will take a look at the trekmoor if I can find it..
Re: Springer needs to relax
Have you tried letting him work with just one other dog for a start and letting him retrieve but not taking the retrieve and then letting him watch another dog whilst he's still holding the dummy?
Rascal
Rascal
General Dogsbody
Re: Springer needs to relax
So it's not the sight of the dummies but the competititveness that was paid to him for running in. Different but the same. As Rascal advises, one dog first but if he can't handle it, let distance from the dog work for you. Send for retrieve if he honours and is calm...close the gap gradually. Add more dogs at distance once again and close distance gradually. Place yourself in front of your dog to decrease the urge to break; but then, I would consider it too close, if that happened. 
Re: Springer needs to relax
Here is the drill for deep rooted behaviours that can't be cleaned up easily. On the bottom of the page, he says that it has been used not only for noise but creeping and spinning. However, as Rascal as pointed out, it may be as simple as one dog retrieving while yours sits holding his reward.
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The Quiet Drill
This was shared with me from a Mike Lardy seminar and I adapted it while trying to "cure" a habitual whiner. This is a shaping drill that gives you a tool to gradually modify behavior over time. I stopped all other field work for months while working on this.
Start with a single thrower in the field. Sit dog at your side. Have thrower shoot and throw a bird and dog will likely whine. If he does say QUIET and have thrower pick up the bird. Repeat several times and pick up bird each time. After several throws where he whines and gets denied next have thrower not shoot and just toss a bumper. Likely dog will not whine and I'll give a soft GOOD DOG and send for bumper. Next go back to gunshot and bird and denials for whining and then do the unattractive bumper and let him get it.
Hopefully after a session or two of this he'll be quiet for the shot and dead bird. Next its time to amp it up a bit. Add props like a shotgun and get some denials and after a few go back to the bumper or bird without shotgun so he can be successful and get a retyrieve. Add duck calls. Add another dog. Add shot flyers.......each time after 3 or 4 failures where he's denied the retrieve drop back a notch or two in excitement so he can be successful and get rewarded with a retrieve.
Next do the above in a new location. And another that is more field like and possibly with a group of people.
The last place to go will be hunting or to a test or trial. For the rest of this dogs career you have to be prepared to deny the retrieve for noise no matter where you are. It doesn't matter if its a hunt of a lifetime or a trial you drove 10 hours to run, you can't reward his noise with a bird once the new standard is established. To do so will essentially un do all the work you have done for months.
Raider was a talented young dog that just couldn't control himself. I picked him up in 2 finished tests and a master test and decided that one way or another we would fix this problem. This decision was made in April and after 6 months of this process he ran his first and only FT. He didn't make a peep. When he picked up the last bird of the trial in the 4th series and got a JAM I then realized that these were the first birds he had ever retrieved in competition because I had picked him up in every other event without him getting a bird. Shortly after that he died in a freak accident while he was still 2 years old but he taught me a lot about dealing with involuntary habits in high dogs. Since then I've used this process to deal with noise, creeping , and even spinning.
Like I said there's no quick fix but it can be controlled
............................................................................................................................................
The Quiet Drill
This was shared with me from a Mike Lardy seminar and I adapted it while trying to "cure" a habitual whiner. This is a shaping drill that gives you a tool to gradually modify behavior over time. I stopped all other field work for months while working on this.
Start with a single thrower in the field. Sit dog at your side. Have thrower shoot and throw a bird and dog will likely whine. If he does say QUIET and have thrower pick up the bird. Repeat several times and pick up bird each time. After several throws where he whines and gets denied next have thrower not shoot and just toss a bumper. Likely dog will not whine and I'll give a soft GOOD DOG and send for bumper. Next go back to gunshot and bird and denials for whining and then do the unattractive bumper and let him get it.
Hopefully after a session or two of this he'll be quiet for the shot and dead bird. Next its time to amp it up a bit. Add props like a shotgun and get some denials and after a few go back to the bumper or bird without shotgun so he can be successful and get a retyrieve. Add duck calls. Add another dog. Add shot flyers.......each time after 3 or 4 failures where he's denied the retrieve drop back a notch or two in excitement so he can be successful and get rewarded with a retrieve.
Next do the above in a new location. And another that is more field like and possibly with a group of people.
The last place to go will be hunting or to a test or trial. For the rest of this dogs career you have to be prepared to deny the retrieve for noise no matter where you are. It doesn't matter if its a hunt of a lifetime or a trial you drove 10 hours to run, you can't reward his noise with a bird once the new standard is established. To do so will essentially un do all the work you have done for months.
Raider was a talented young dog that just couldn't control himself. I picked him up in 2 finished tests and a master test and decided that one way or another we would fix this problem. This decision was made in April and after 6 months of this process he ran his first and only FT. He didn't make a peep. When he picked up the last bird of the trial in the 4th series and got a JAM I then realized that these were the first birds he had ever retrieved in competition because I had picked him up in every other event without him getting a bird. Shortly after that he died in a freak accident while he was still 2 years old but he taught me a lot about dealing with involuntary habits in high dogs. Since then I've used this process to deal with noise, creeping , and even spinning.
Like I said there's no quick fix but it can be controlled