Steadiness?

[Rascal]

Interesting...my thoughts are.....

As a steadiness exercise it's a pretty futile one and I agree one where most dogs pretty quickly cotton on to the "game" and not very rewarding or stretching for a youngster.

It can cause problems that are unnecessary from reading behind some of the posts on here it's boring and predictable to some dogs and has been pointed out, doesn't work in other more realistic situations... Some dogs are pressured by it and it can induce whining, spinning and uncertainty especially with a less enthusiastic retriever or done too soon. It replicates nothing in the shooting field apart from possibly a peg dog. We can be a lot more inventive surely....

I try to train steadiness exercises differently and and I try to use scenarios that replicate a shooting situation. I also try and set the scenario up where I'm in a position to "win" if necessary...But try my upmost to make it rewarding for the dog.

First of all I'll introduce a distraction dummy as a youngster is returning with a dummy dropped close to me in a place where if the dog looks like it's going to head for it I can easily reach it before the dog..When I first start this I always pick the distraction myself and do so for a good while and I extend the proximity to the dog of the distraction....I'm happy for the youngster to stop and mark it though but any movement towards it has me on the recall whistle sharpish and getting ready to pick the distraction..

Then I'll do things like rolling a ball in as a youngster's hunting and blow the sit hopefully the youngster will sit if I've gauged it right and I'll reward it with a dummy tossed away from the distraction. I might then either pick it or hunt the youngster on and send it for the distraction as a memory or I'll have dropped a blind or memory before doing this and send the youngster for the blind/memory and either pick the distraction or hunt the youngster away from it and then send it as a memory....Or walk the youngster on do other bits and then hunt it onto the distraction after a bit of time has elapsed....The dog gets rewarded with a retrieve and or a hunt for being steady..

Later in in a youngsters training I'll hunt the youngster with an older dog and toss a dummy as it's hunting blow the stop and then I might turn and send the older dog for a blind behind and then send the youngster for the distraction dummy as a memory and reward....Or send the older dog for the distraction and then send the youngster for the blind...

As the youngster progresses and is ok with shot I will introduce say a shot with the blind for the older dog..And then send the youngster for what is now a memory...I'll introduce a youngster to sitting with my older dogs and being sent by name only and I use words that sound like their name but are not before sending them...

I do also train the stop when I've sent a dog on a retrieve but I am wary of when I do this and I never finish a session on it nor do I labour it. Always sending the dog for a couple of either long seen retrieves and or long memories..I don't want to make the dog hesitant on the retrieve at all...

All instilling steadiness and control in a rewarding way for a youngster, teaching it that it's on your terms but if it trusts you and is steady there is a reward just not always where and when it expects to receive it.. Dogs do what works for them and if by being steady to a retrieve and history has taught them that's what works to get the reward then that is what they'll do...Then you have to take that onto game....

Like Naj I don't deny my dogs if they have remained steady either, why would you?

Rascal

[Judy]

But all that comes after the initial calming exercises? You only go to get the dummy if the dog is hyped by the thought of getting it, a hyped retriever needs to know it gets bugger all that it sees flying and landing, just as when picking up. Once the dog grasps that it ain't always his then move swiftly on to the exercises you describe above. And when picking up you don't send a dog for all the dead birds nearby, you tend to pick a few yourself maybe, especially if the dog has legged it after a bird.
I found, with the Cockers, teaching a sit/stay alongside encouraging them to enjoy retrieving then bringing the two together works for me. Once the dog has had a couple of retrieves its steady to then it gets trained with the others so is still learning to honour other's retrieves. With only one dog you have to let it know by one means or another that it ain't getting everything it sees, one of those ways is by walking out yourself.

[Rascal]

You only go to get the dummy if the dog is hyped by the thought of getting it, a hyped retriever needs to know it gets bugger all that it sees flying and landing, just as when picking up.

If that were the case, I'd never send Scally for another retrieve Judy....She trembles from head to foot watching a drive, yet she remains steady 99.9% of the time..

I think if I'd tried chucking dummies about and not sending her when training her as a youngster I could have induced a whine...I'd certainly have caused myself problems...

Rascal

[Judy]

Yup, you'd have buggered yer back up bending over to pick them up!

What works for one dog may not work for another.

[Stihl 090]

We (royal we) have trained two ftw's using the above methods of dummy throwing for steadiness and rolled tennis balls for simulated game. Never been a problem, and something I will be doing for the next pup when she arrives.
We throw anything including all types of dummy's, sticks, balls anything the dog thinks is of interest I r has had before. Rolling balls seem to be the most attractive!!
After this initial phase a flying game pen and rabbit pen is next to progress steadiness

[Naj]

I send my dogs for every retrieve & the retrieve becomes contingent upon - & a reward for - the dog being steady, and that is far more effective than when I used to follow the practice of only sending the dog for one in four retrieves etc. Anticipation is inevitable so prepare for it & you, & your dog, won't be left without a contingency for it when it crops up.

Naj

I agree Naj. Wondering...how do you handle the 'run in' if it happens ?

When a dog understands that being sent for the retrieve is contingent upon it remaining steady until sent, any subsequent 'run-in' is the result of a genuine mistake on the dog's part in anticipating the release command. So I expect this to happen & every time it crops up I stop the dog in its first stride in an Agh Agh you've boobed kind of way & walk it a few yards farther from the retrieve & try again. I would repeat this until the dog is settled in its steadiness, so to speak, but only the once is usually all that is required. If the dog doesn't stop then that's invariably because I was too slow - in giving the counter-command when the dog had got into its stride - so I take the retrieve off it without saying anything & set it up for another one & am more careful this time. But the dog is usually aware that it has goofed & performs perfectly on this occasion. So the 'you've goofed' command is built into the retrieve from the get-go.

I also do a lot of work in building the dog's self-control & work on preventing any hair-trigger response to the retrieve command &/or any hyper behaviour. The retrieve is part of a long behaviour chain so anticipation is part & parcel of that & should be expected on the release part, which is the one that concerns us the most. If you allow the dog to pass the anticipation point unchecked, it develops beyond an accidental response to a 'running-in' problem, one that has effectively been trained in to the chain, & this is then a different situation & one which is far harder to cure.

Naj

[Naj]

The 'pick-up-more-than-the-dog-retrieves' routine has been standard practice for years, has been used by endless numbers of trainers over the years & is the first thing that most mention when looking for a remedy for running-in. Yet endless numbers of trainers over the years have failed to instil steadiness to fall in their dogs despite routine use of it in their training regime. So I would suggest that if you have a steady dog & happen to have used this method, then your dog is steady in spite of this, rather than because of it.

Naj

[Judy]

And many dogs have failed to stop on the "Agh, agh!" too, in my humble.

[newf]

Interesting...my thoughts are.....

As a steadiness exercise it's a pretty futile one and I agree one where most dogs pretty quickly cotton on to the "game" and not very rewarding or stretching for a youngster.Rascal

I agree, but that is not the way to play it. The denials have to be random and variable. Long and short retrieves picked by handler in no particular order. Maybe the first one, maybe the last one or maybe, none at all. The dog shouldn't be able to count or pick up on cues that would lead it to anticipate his turn...always guessing keeps it interesting and the dog focused.

It can cause problems that are unnecessary from reading behind some of the posts on here it's boring and predictable to some dogs and has been pointed out, doesn't work in other more realistic situations... Some dogs are pressured by it and it can induce whining, spinning and uncertainty especially with a less enthusiastic retriever or done too soon. It replicates nothing in the shooting field apart from possibly a peg dog. We can be a lot more inventive surely....Rascal

If denials cause whining then the trainers timing is off or there is frequent misreading of the dog's behavior when allowing the reward. Furthermore, if dealing with a unenthusiastic dog then steadying is not the first problem to be worked on but the second. Lastly, the "Quiet Drill" seems to be founded on denials and it supposed to fix noise, spinning and creeping.

I try to train steadiness exercises differently and and I try to use scenarios that replicate a shooting situation. I also try and set the scenario up where I'm in a position to "win" if necessary...But try my upmost to make it rewarding for the dog.Rascal

I think even denials can be rewarding if the dog can't anticipate when and where he will be sent for his reward. Then too, my impression was that the variable reward built a more durable behavior than constant reinforcement.

All instilling steadiness and control in a rewarding way for a youngster, teaching it that it's on your terms but if it trusts you and is steady there is a reward just not always where and when it expects to receive it.. Dogs do what works for them and if by being steady to a retrieve and history has taught them that's what works to get the reward then that is what they'll do...Then you have to take that onto game....

Like Naj I don't deny my dogs if they have remained steady either, why would you? Rascal

I do follow what you have described for steadiness for the dual purpose of constant learning and fun. However, it seems that establishing a base of communication first, later sets up the random and dynamic play of 'listen to me, take direction and you will be assured of a reward.'

Rascal, this is just my neophyte ramblings that are in constant evolution...bear with me.

[Rascal]

Newf,

I'd rather not have to use the "quiet drill" due to something I'd caused....Nor do I want to take months out of my training to fix it.....I don't believe once started whining is possible to eradicate totally...

Regularly sitting a dog up and tossing all sorts of tempting stuff around it teaches it "the game" in my humble and I don't think dogs find it rewarding even if it's sent for an "unpredictable" reward, because they get the "picture". I believe it can create uncertainty and a lack of trust where there should be none..Particularly when in the early stages..

I try to make it more realistic from the word go, the irony is although I don't play this game with my dogs and were I able to walk far at the minute. I could go out with a load of dummies sit them either individually or together and toss the dummies around without an attempt on my dogs part to get the dummies. And I could pick them all myself or send a dog for a couple and me pick the rest...Would the dog find that intrinsically rewarding or stretching in any way and what would it have taught the dog?

We'll agree to differ on it.....

Rascal