What is general view off breeders in forum re puppies developing health issues after being purchased ,have owned and trained for over 20 years
and have had problems on two occasions by well known kennels ,1st was cocker dog I purchased last year from championship winning kennels who developed undershot jaw when he reached about 5 months emailed seller on several occasions on subject but refused to respond ,2nd was few
years ago was springer bitch that had numerous visits to vets and was initially treated for conjunctivitis but was later referred to eye specialised
vet and was diagnosed with a detached retina and was explained to myself that both sire and dam must posses faulty gene to cause this problem, contacted breeder wasn't happy with response even said it could have been caused by an injury and continued using dams full brother as a stud dog.
My main interest in gundogs is training so would like opinion off some members who enjoy breeding side.
Problems with pups
Re: Problems with pups
Things like under/overshot mouths unless present at time of purchase its rare for a breeder to offer any compensation, this is why its important to have a good look at any pups mouth when you buy it at 8 weeks and if there is any doubt pass on it, but if the problem develops later in life im afraid IMO that's hard luck, I've had a few with bad mouths in the past its just one of those things, it doesn't stop them working or trialing but it does muck up future potential breeding plans.
Re: Problems with pups
I agree with the mouth issue. It doesn't normally affect their working ability & can generally be spotted in a pup. Worrying about the eye problem, though.
Naj
Naj
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Ada C
Re: Problems with pups
If I was in this situation, as a purchaser, I would expect the breeder to acknowledge the problem and give me an assurance that he / she would either take steps to make sure it was unlikely to happen again (if the condition was hereditary, or possibly hereditary) or, at least be knowledgeable enough to offer some advice to help deal with the effects of the fault. Just refusing to respond is plain bad manners. However, I would hate to see a real 'blame' culture developing, where any problem with the dog is automatically blamed on the breeder, or the training class, or anyone but the owners (I know that's not the case at all in the 1st post 
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)Re: Problems with pups
Thanks for replies the cocker pup mouth had no problems as 8 week old and was told his mouth was fine before made journey to pick him up he was first class pup in every other way the problem only developed as he matured ,viewed another pup by same breeder a few weeks ago again out off ftch bitch with view to buy she was 4 1/2 months old she was also undershot seller was shocked when I pointed this out so think it could have been similar case , no I also don't want blame culture but used car bought as seen doesn't seem quite right to me either
Re: Problems with pups
I bred a litter of labs 8 years ago and kept a couple of puppies back with a view of bringing them on then probably sell one late but as it happened, one of the dog pups suddenly developed a very overshot bite at about 6 months of age - up until it was a perfect bite and there was no way of telling this was going to happen. None of the other puppies from that litter suffered from it nor did sire and dam so I guess it was just pure luck that I, the breeder, had kept that puppy and it hadn't gone to someone else. Needless to say that the dog stayed put - he will retrieve but has a couple of times dropped a bird simply because a soft mouth and overshot is just not a good combination hence the reason why it's a major fault.
As a breeder, there isn't much I could have done to know about this dog developing an overshot jaw as this was the first time the bitch had been bred to that specific dog but it should clearly be something I should take into consideration when making any future breeding plans.
The detached retina is a different matter or at least it is now a days as breeders can of course now check and DNA test for many conditions plus make sure they get their dogs eyes checked at a BVA eye clinic. Still some reluctance within some spaniel breeders to make use of some of these tests and in such a case, I'd be disappointed if a breeder hadn't made use of these tests before breeding - breeding a 'clear' to a 'carrier' dog or a 'clear' to 'clear' would prevent a lot of heartache for dogs and their owners. Potential puppy buyers have of course the choice of walking away from a litter where none of the parents have had any health tests done. In this case here, neither the dam nor the sire should have been bred from until they were tested for the condition.
As someone who does also buy in puppies, I will look at health tests and only buy from health tested stock BUT they are dogs so if something should 'pop up' later, well I wont be blaming anyone as all care had been taken to prevent health issues and sometimes *something* just pops up and all I can do in such a case would be to inform the breeder. I wouldn't expect any compensation. HC is a good example as there is no DNA test for it only a yearly BVA eye test but a dog may pass the BVA for years before it tests 'affected' and by that time it could have had several litters or sired several litters so all you can do is stop using the dog but you can't really blame anyone as the breeder has done whatever possible before breeding.
Natasha
As a breeder, there isn't much I could have done to know about this dog developing an overshot jaw as this was the first time the bitch had been bred to that specific dog but it should clearly be something I should take into consideration when making any future breeding plans.
The detached retina is a different matter or at least it is now a days as breeders can of course now check and DNA test for many conditions plus make sure they get their dogs eyes checked at a BVA eye clinic. Still some reluctance within some spaniel breeders to make use of some of these tests and in such a case, I'd be disappointed if a breeder hadn't made use of these tests before breeding - breeding a 'clear' to a 'carrier' dog or a 'clear' to 'clear' would prevent a lot of heartache for dogs and their owners. Potential puppy buyers have of course the choice of walking away from a litter where none of the parents have had any health tests done. In this case here, neither the dam nor the sire should have been bred from until they were tested for the condition.
As someone who does also buy in puppies, I will look at health tests and only buy from health tested stock BUT they are dogs so if something should 'pop up' later, well I wont be blaming anyone as all care had been taken to prevent health issues and sometimes *something* just pops up and all I can do in such a case would be to inform the breeder. I wouldn't expect any compensation. HC is a good example as there is no DNA test for it only a yearly BVA eye test but a dog may pass the BVA for years before it tests 'affected' and by that time it could have had several litters or sired several litters so all you can do is stop using the dog but you can't really blame anyone as the breeder has done whatever possible before breeding.
Natasha
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vicky payne
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Re: Problems with pups
1) The mouth. The problem was not present when purchased, and as long as the breeder was not aware of undershot jaws from previous matings he did all he could. It is a shame he wasn't interested in hearing from your though as most breeders would want to know if their breeding has thrown faults to try and prevent them in future litters.
2) The retina. There can be many causes of a detached retina, some genetic, some not. IF the breeder had DNA tested and done the KC/BVA eye scheme tests then, again he would be in the clear as far as having taken all reasonable precautions go. Again he should still be interested in the problem, and should want to get as much info as possible on whether this *could* be a gentic fault or was due to insult or injury.
Unfortunately some breeders might not want to hear because they have their heads in the sand. Other may think you're coming after them for compensation! If you were after compensation a dog is covered by the same laws as a sofa...and different parties have to prove they did/didn't do things depending on the time from purchase. However, a dog isn't a sofa, and as Natasha has pointed out even health tested dogs at teh time of mating can go on to fail later down the line, not to mention all the things we can't/don't test for.
2) The retina. There can be many causes of a detached retina, some genetic, some not. IF the breeder had DNA tested and done the KC/BVA eye scheme tests then, again he would be in the clear as far as having taken all reasonable precautions go. Again he should still be interested in the problem, and should want to get as much info as possible on whether this *could* be a gentic fault or was due to insult or injury.
Unfortunately some breeders might not want to hear because they have their heads in the sand. Other may think you're coming after them for compensation! If you were after compensation a dog is covered by the same laws as a sofa...and different parties have to prove they did/didn't do things depending on the time from purchase. However, a dog isn't a sofa, and as Natasha has pointed out even health tested dogs at teh time of mating can go on to fail later down the line, not to mention all the things we can't/don't test for.
Re: Problems with pups
Some of its luck of the draw but 1. only buy health checked 2. examine the reason the litter was bred and use the BS detector on the answers. 3, walk away from any your not sure of despite who is doing the telling
Re: Problems with pups
I have bred nine litters over the same number of years. I keep in touch with people so far as I can and I have only had feedback on one pup with a jaw problem. The bite was perfect at 8 weeks but not right at 6 months - nothing I could do other than offer to take back the pup and replace from the next litter. A bit more complicated as I had gifted the pup to a charity (along with his brother) and he was doing so very well with the specialist training they just wanted me to know about the issue for my breeding programme, no way did they want to send the pup back. That was the first and so far only time I had used an outside sire - all other litters from my own boys.
Detached retina - very difficult. My OH took the sire and dam and a litter of pups to have the appropriate eye tests. BVA Eyetest for sire and dam and litter screening for the pups. Dam OK, pups screened OK for MRD (Multifocal Retinal Dysplacia) but sire has a detatched retina - classic result of MRD. Previous history for sire is Unaffected ( 3 examinations I think). So BVA Panellist says 3 monthly checks but this time will say Unaffected MRD because all of the litter OK. As I had been to a KC Breeder Seminar I had met the then Chair of the BVA Eye Panel and as she was coming on holiday to NW Scotland, she agreed to do the first 3 month check. Prof Sheila Crispin examined my Glen and took a photo of his slumped retina with a fundus camera. No intervention possible, but she assured me he was not in any pain and the regular checks would be looking for tissue degeneration that could cause infection. Next three month check, back with the original BVA Panellist, Tony Wall and after the examination, Why is this dog here? Detached retina. No sign of of it. Sheila Crispin photographed it. No sign of it now - except after a prolonged examination a little mark was visible - The retina had re-attached naturally - Tony now uses Glen as a subject for students.
Hereditary Cataract - not in the frame for Springers but my girl Breagha has a very slight cataract. She was litter screened at about 7 weeks, First BVA Eyetest and Gonioscopy at about one year and Unaffected and her second BVA showed a very small cataract. Following it through, with 3 monthly checks, Tony was able to say trauma and probably from a cat scratch.
I too do not want a blame culture - we are dealing with dogs and all their quirks - do the best you can as a breeder. Bear in mind though that recent research has shown there are about 70 inherited conditions (disease conditions - but many of them very,very, rare) in Springers and we only have DNA tests for 3, possibly moving into 4 (AMS -Acral Mutilation Syndrome). The best defense is to have as low a Co-efficient of Inbreeding as possible. But we all know breeding is more than the numbers if you want the best results - but you can do both.
Detached retina - very difficult. My OH took the sire and dam and a litter of pups to have the appropriate eye tests. BVA Eyetest for sire and dam and litter screening for the pups. Dam OK, pups screened OK for MRD (Multifocal Retinal Dysplacia) but sire has a detatched retina - classic result of MRD. Previous history for sire is Unaffected ( 3 examinations I think). So BVA Panellist says 3 monthly checks but this time will say Unaffected MRD because all of the litter OK. As I had been to a KC Breeder Seminar I had met the then Chair of the BVA Eye Panel and as she was coming on holiday to NW Scotland, she agreed to do the first 3 month check. Prof Sheila Crispin examined my Glen and took a photo of his slumped retina with a fundus camera. No intervention possible, but she assured me he was not in any pain and the regular checks would be looking for tissue degeneration that could cause infection. Next three month check, back with the original BVA Panellist, Tony Wall and after the examination, Why is this dog here? Detached retina. No sign of of it. Sheila Crispin photographed it. No sign of it now - except after a prolonged examination a little mark was visible - The retina had re-attached naturally - Tony now uses Glen as a subject for students.
Hereditary Cataract - not in the frame for Springers but my girl Breagha has a very slight cataract. She was litter screened at about 7 weeks, First BVA Eyetest and Gonioscopy at about one year and Unaffected and her second BVA showed a very small cataract. Following it through, with 3 monthly checks, Tony was able to say trauma and probably from a cat scratch.
I too do not want a blame culture - we are dealing with dogs and all their quirks - do the best you can as a breeder. Bear in mind though that recent research has shown there are about 70 inherited conditions (disease conditions - but many of them very,very, rare) in Springers and we only have DNA tests for 3, possibly moving into 4 (AMS -Acral Mutilation Syndrome). The best defense is to have as low a Co-efficient of Inbreeding as possible. But we all know breeding is more than the numbers if you want the best results - but you can do both.
Re: Problems with pups
MRD used to be a big problems in Golden Retrievers until they decided to take action and litter screened - it can clearly be detected up until a puppy is 12 weeks of age but after that it can 'come and go' so some BVA test would be 'unaffected' others wont. I used a Lab stud dog a few years back and when the puppies were 10 weeks old, the KC suddenly released a list over dogs which had tested 'affected' for MRD at some tests and then 'unaffected' at others and this stud dog was on that list! The stud dog owner had failed to inform me (and others) and could produce an 'unaffected' BVA eye test so I had no problems with using this dog. What really, really annoyed me (perhaps even more) was that looking at the released KC list, they (or someone) had actually sat on this information for 6 years (!!!!!!) - that is just unacceptable in my bookSgurr wrote: Detached retina - very difficult. My OH took the sire and dam and a litter of pups to have the appropriate eye tests. BVA Eyetest for sire and dam and litter screening for the pups. Dam OK, pups screened OK for MRD (Multifocal Retinal Dysplacia) but sire has a detatched retina - classic result of MRD. Previous history for sire is Unaffected ( 3 examinations I think). So BVA Panellist says 3 monthly checks but this time will say Unaffected MRD because all of the litter OK. As I had been to a KC Breeder Seminar I had met the then Chair of the BVA Eye Panel and as she was coming on holiday to NW Scotland, she agreed to do the first 3 month check. Prof Sheila Crispin examined my Glen and took a photo of his slumped retina with a fundus camera. No intervention possible, but she assured me he was not in any pain and the regular checks would be looking for tissue degeneration that could cause infection. Next three month check, back with the original BVA Panellist, Tony Wall and after the examination, Why is this dog here? Detached retina. No sign of of it. Sheila Crispin photographed it. No sign of it now - except after a prolonged examination a little mark was visible - The retina had re-attached naturally - Tony now uses Glen as a subject for students.
Someone, somewhere should have informed the breed clubs and an proactive approach to this problem should have been taken and not the 'bury the head in the sand as we might upset someone' approach. All I could do at that stage as a breeder, was to inform all the puppy owners and strongly recommend that they got their puppy BVA eye tested within the next two weeks and I took the puppy that I had kept to AHT to get him tested and he tested 'unaffected'.
MRD is important for working (gun)dogs as apparently it will affect a dog's marking ability as it can't see clearly so it's something that is of high relevance to us.
Natasha