getting cocker to give to hand

[h&t]

newf, that's interesting. Game of tug is hugely popular in the obedience world and one day I hope dog trainers will prove it can be useful in gundog training (as you did).

[newf]

The only way I'd end up in Barlinnie Prison would be for beating up some cheeky old Scots Baldie.

Please wear long, black, kinky, high heeled boots while you beat me up .

Wullie

Could someone loop in the soup dragon, so the conversation goes up a notch?

Could we save this for another thread ? "What is rewarding depends on the dog ?"

[Springfield Pointers]

The only way I'd end up in Barlinnie Prison would be for beating up some cheeky old Scots Baldie.

Please wear long, black, kinky, high heeled boots while you beat me up .

Wullie

Are you lot trying to teach old dogs new tricks?

[Cass]

Just a question. If a dog, that is bred for retrieving, does not have a desire to retrieve, surely one has missed a trick in the breeding? Simply put: One should not have to force anything. The desire to retrieve, in a retrieving breed, should be a prerequisite.

FF has nothing to do with retrieve desire so I'm confused at this post.

[trekmoor]

Like Judy I have a worry that both F.F. and C.T. retrieve training might result in dogs being bred from that should never be bred from . If a dog actually needs either of those training methods to make it into a retriever then it has a very suspect retrieve instinct I.M.O.

There exists the possibility that such a dog could become a f.t.ch. and be bred from . I would not want one of it's pups .

Wullie

[Springfield Pointers]

Just a question. If a dog, that is bred for retrieving, does not have a desire to retrieve, surely one has missed a trick in the breeding? Simply put: One should not have to force anything. The desire to retrieve, in a retrieving breed, should be a prerequisite.

FF has nothing to do with retrieve desire so I'm confused at this post.

Hi Cass. What do you understand retrieve desire to be? Force Fetch has everything to do with it.

[kent]

In my lifetime, I've only trained four dogs through FF. They were good reliable gundogs for duck hunting. However, my present lab who is now three was trained by playing tug. The reason I decided to go that route was because he didn't show much interest in retrieving unlike the past dogs. Therefore I wanted to keep it fun and nuture the desire. A limp piece of firehose with encouragement to grab and hold with the reinforcement of light tugging on my part led to 'leave it' and; eventually, coupled with a very short toss in the kitchen to the retrieve. Later, he was encouraged to just pick up a few odd things like a sock, a toy or even trade his chew for a nice treat. Today, he will pick up most anything he can handle if asked because he has associated it with something good. I would also think that his basic ob has been thorough enough to have backed up the command fetch indirectly so no need of an ear pinch.

Expanding on that, in early training, he routinely carried dummies by their ropes and would return with them swinging to and fro. Then too, on retrieving tennis balls he sometimes gave them a squeeze and a roll as he presented them to me. With time and I suppose the factors of maturity and convenience changed his dummy carrying behaviour to what I desired...by the center. However, his ball squeeze is still present but not to the same degree. Still, the sometimes controversial tug play and tennis ball are part of his training and has not caused any issues with the application of real birds alive or dead.

Interesting because a few lurcher people believe in Tug training. Its always been a big NO in gundogs but your experience shows otherwise. I think understanding the reasons for hard mouth are not yet sorted or even if we ever will understand them 100%

[kent]

newf, that's interesting. Game of tug is hugely popular in the obedience world and one day I hope dog trainers will prove it can be useful in gundog training (as you did).

I have seen a compulsive retriever created from a non retrieving cocker with use of edible treats and it didn't spit its retrieves one bit, just shows what we know for sure is never really sure

[Cass]

Hi Cass. What do you understand retrieve desire to be? Force Fetch has everything to do with it.

We don't use FF to create a dog that wants to retrieve... they are bred for that. If I got a dog that had no desire to retrieve then it would be retired solely to pet status. FF lays a foundation of lessons to follow. As far as the actual retrieving aspect, FF doesn't give a dog drive to retrieve. It just teaches it how we would like it to retrieve. I would hope most well bred gun dogs would "come out of the package" with an insanely high drive to retrieve, I know my cocker did. To answer your question directly, I believe retrieve desire to be the dog's hardwired response to chasing something thrown or shot and bringing it back to its owner. Unfortunately lots of dogs do that but then throw in their own antics as well like evading or circling. FF helps that and establishes with the dog that if it is instructed to retrieve it must. I can see both sides of the coin. Not trying to stir up trouble. I am very analytical in how I think and I know FF works so to me it wouldn't make sense to not do it. Its just another step along the training process. I can appreciate that others don't feel the same. I enjoy this forum because it is different from others I am on. Diversity in life is key

[krakadawn]

Home early from a field trial due to poor marking and not anything to do with FF!!!.

I understand as has been said that at times when an individual asks certain questions about delivery and FF is mentioned we seem to widen the gap with understanding about how people do things. The FF approach although hopefully helpful is used more so with retriever folks as compared to other sporting dogs.

Is it the only process.....absolutely not and I'm sure from comments from various folks on this forum that they have found a technique/process to teach the desired skill for their dog. I clearly see how some folks teach a 'solid' hold with their dogs and dogs deliver birds in a presentable fashion.
Retrievers especially in FT are required to deliver at one's side, bird in mouth and be focussed on the next retrieve. I certainly don't want a dog coming in mouthing or continually adjusting his hold. Time is important and he needs to be focussed.

I see various comments about dogs cigaring or holding bumpers by the string, some drop on the way in. These behaviours are cleaned up by FF.

I see also a misconception that appears at times and that is a dog with little or no desire will become a better dog. A good dog is a good dog, a poor dog is a poor dog. Cass' comment is correct, a dog with weak retrieving desire is destined to become a pet.....make no mistake about....FF or any other process will not correct that genetic issue. We in the retriever game would never suggest such to be true in fact if the lack of prey drive was so weak, then the dog likely would not even get to the FF process.

For those not aware, you might google what Bill Hillman is doing with training. He starts the 'fetch' process very young and there is very minimal pressure at all. He has some u-tube videos for those who do not wish to purchase his DVD's. It' really more of early and extended hold teaching.

We FF'd Cass's cocker. It cleaned up various behavious and did not lead to restrictions as a solid hunting spaniel. We also took him through much more of the type of process one would systematically use for non slip retrievers, that too was of value especially what we refer to as the 'basics'.

For us FF is more about creating conditions around the retrieving they do. No cigaring, no dropping, no carrying by the string, no dropping birds, no hard mouthing etc. As I've said, I'm sure others find ways to get their dog to do what they like. I do know some handlers put up with far too much poor behaviour from their dogs. I see this often so perhaps we should discuss the delivery skills that your dog has and forget FF.

Are you happy with his delivery? Does he do it in a timely and presentable way? Guess that's what's important to most.

Apologies for a lengthy post, if you have a process that fits for you then carry on with it.

Cheers,