pet gundog question

[Naj]

Judy, you're a wizard - wouldn't work for me.

Ips, it's nothing to do with having a 'commanding' voice, the dog has simply made associations between your demeanour &/or body language with a 'corrective' you & the particular voice you use when you think that you are being commanding. It's a learnt response.

Boot lace!!! Can't you find something more substantial than that??? I was thinking along the lines of proper parachute chord or thin (5mm or so) braided rope you get from climbing shops or ships chandlers. They sell it by the yards. And you're having a tough time teaching steadiness because you're trying to impose your will on the dog with all this foot in front of it business. I might have said that dogs learn in context & the dog is learning that if you aren't in a position to block it then breaking is a viable option. When I teach steadiness I want the dog to learn for itself by making the right choices rather than have a choice imposed on it through some 'blocking' action or threat from me. So when using a training lead I'd be behind the dog so it has an unencumbered view of the dummy & is free to go if it chooses. I'd be holding the line lightly in the eventuality of it breaking & would let it slip through my fingers when I sent the dog, retaining it gently if it tried to move. I described the process earlier.

And all these things take time to consolidate & become reliable so don't expect instant results.

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

Boot lace is not something you want to associate with a working bird dog. Keep boot laces far away from bird dogs. It's bad juju.

[Rascal]

She's not steady to a thrown dummy because you are by your physical presence of standing in front of her or even with a light line physically preventing her from getting the dummy. I do it a different way and I can't claim to having the idea for it, it was a technique shown to me and it works. Dogs need to learn to be steady in their own head, not from outward forces....

I don't subscribe to the idea of tossing retrieves around and picking all bar one and letting the dog retrieve only that one or none either.... If the dog remains steady it gets every retrieve I throw otherwise you simply confuse the dog.....It has learnt that to get the dummy it has to remain steady and then you go tossing dummies about, it remains steady and doesn't get the reward for it.....What's that all about? You end up with a dog that gets frustrated and probably breaks for it and then you probably do all that running it down stuff, scruffing it and taking it back to the place it broke the sit. If the dog reaches the dummy before you reach it then you are causing even more problems...

To do it as I was shown you need a dummy thrower....Sit the dog on a lead and have the dummy thrower toss a dummy close to the thrower. As the dummy hits the deck you give a light check on the lead and blow the stop quietly..If the dog remains sat, praise it. Then with the lead lose on the dogs neck drop the lead and put your foot on it...Have the thrower toss the dummy a short way and as it hits the deck blow the stop again if the dog remains sat praise it..If it doesn't it's not going to get the dummy so rinse and repeat...Most dogs remain sat....

Then go 'off lead' and have the dummy thrower toss the dummy a short distance from him/her again as it hits the deck blow the stop most keen retrievers will run in at this stage so the thrower should pick the dummy before the dog reaches it and tuck it away in a dummy bag well out of the dogs reach...You don't want the dog jumping at it at this stage either.....because to a high drive dog that is reward in itself...

Recall the dog rinse and repeat as soon as the dog remains steady send the dog on it's name....they pretty soon work out that to get that dummy it is conditional on their remaining seated.....If they run in they get nothing...Thereafter maintain it in different scenarios and if it breaks down go back a step you've moved too fast for the dog.....leading up to working two dogs...

Rascal

[Springfield Pointers]

Great post Rascal. IPS, the best thing you can teach a dog is patience. Once you have done that, it opens doors to so many things.

[ips]

Thanks rascal that all makes sense but now I must decide on who's method to use yours or the one I have got this far on which was naj's method.
I think it only fare to continue with the naj method but if it does not continue to work I will try yours.
Many thanks.

Springfield ..... Understood, patience !!

[Naj]

Either method will work, as will others, providing you are consistent. Rascal's isn't far different from mine in that I restrain the dog should it decide to move so the calm, settled behaviour becomes the trigger for the release to the reward of a retrieve, whereas Rascal's uses a stooge to remove the reward if the dog moves. They both entail sending the dog for each & every retrieve it is steady to & both make the reward of the retrieve contingent upon steadiness behaviour by the dog. In either case the dog is working it all out for itself - what works & what doesn't - without any pressure from you. We're both manipulating the consequences of behaviours. As I mentioned earlier, once you understand how to manipulate the 'consequences' & look at training from that perspective then you will have made a big leap in your understanding, Grasshopper.

Naj

[ips]

Lol.
Cheers naj, yes consistency seems to be the key word in all things dog.

Thank you master .... Lol

[ips]

Ooh really chuffed we now have a steady dog to dummie thrown with her at heal, no need to block her now I let her run in with the ball but she knows when dummie comes out were working. I would post vid if I could work it out.
Anyway I am really pleased and appreciative of the advice I have been given.

[ips]

Sorry if this difference of opinion is all confusing for you but it strikes me that you appear to be doing alright just as you are - the dog is already learning what command/body language means go & what means stop. Putting your hand on her will form part of the picture & you could fade that but if you are doing it this way I'd have the dog wearing a collar with a couple of yards of very light thin line on it that you can surreptitiously get hold of before you toss a retrieve. This means that the dog is getting the right picture of you standing upright & is having to make the right choice for itself - to stand/sit quietly waiting for the release - rather than you having to physically stop it from running-in, as you are doing now. I'd use the line to gently restrain the dog until it stops trying to go for the dummy & stands/sits quietly, then I'd immediately send it on its name & let the training line slip through my fingers & trail behind the dog. When the dog stops/sits by itself in anticipation of the release command when you throw the dummy then I'd introduce the sit/stop command & from there I'd work on walking the dog away a few yards & sending it back as a go-back & then increase the distance. Then I'd mix & match go-backs & with marked retrieves etc.

I would keep this completely separate to fun retrieves until steadiness was well established, & I'd only work at this with dummies so the dog learns to discriminate & associates dummies with being steady. Once steadiness is reliable then you can incorporate it into your fun retrieves with balls/frizbees etc but never do the reverse & let it run-in on dummies & you shouldn't have any problem. When I'm doing fun retrieves I speak the dog's name & when it looks around at me I chuck the ball. If I'm wanting a steady fun retrieve then I say 'sit' first, wait a moment to ensure the dog understands & then toss it. If you've more than one dog you can teach steadiness/discrimination on the name command without any formal training just by favouring the 'retrieve' dog when you speak its name & throw the ball.

Naj

Naj
Quick update I had her steady for a couple of days prob through good luck rather than good management then due to hurt paw we had a few days off by which time she forgot and would run in unless I was in front of her. Been following the above on two sessions today and its working a treat. I see now how and why this method works.
Cheers
Ian

[Naj]

Good to hear it, Ian.

To quote somebody else, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Dogs don't forget! You simply haven't trained an established & reliable behaviour. You quite simply haven't spent enough time on it! As I mentioned before, this will take weeks/months & not just a couple of sessions. You need to do many changes of location & distraction proof the hell out of the behaviour before it becomes reliable & consistent.
Whatever method you use, stick with it until you & the dog have mastered it. Switching about will only cause confusion. There's no magic secret to training, just consistency, persistence & repetition, repetition, repetition. So long as you're repeating the right stuff.

Naj