straight??

[Springfield Pointers]

At a guess I would suggest you have tried to go too far before the dog has got confidence in the fact that where you want I to go will be rewarding. Smaller steps.

[Naj]

And what distances are you sending her back on?

Just an observation, but this is a 3 year old springer, presumably with experience & a history of not running out 'cleanly' on a blind. Waggon wheels & such stuff might have worked with a younger & less educated dog but by 3 years of age you've pretty much got the finished article, & one very much set in its ways at that. It used to be common for springers to be more quartering minded & they were devils to push out in a clean out-run because they'd always be wanting to stop after a certain distance & begin using their noses. The remedy was to keep stopping them & pushing them back out if they did so. Training techniques on handling blinds have improved over the years but if a 3 year old dog has learnt that breaking off & hunting works then I doubt you're going to change its mind with a few dummy lessons. If you can get your dog out to within 20 yards of the fall of a shot bird I'd settle for that - it will find a dead bird much faster than it would a dummy. At this age, enjoy the dog that you've got, otherwise you can end up making both your lives a misery.

Naj

[Rascal]

Yup the dog is finding the retrieve despite the handler not because of him (no offence meant G & G) and it will take a while. But once the handler understands that and how to remedy it, then with time and patience he could certainly improve things for both the dog and him as long as he moves at the dogs pace...

I don't hold with the old maxim you can't teach an old dog new tricks you can, once it understands what you are asking...it just takes longer. It will revert if it's confused to old learnt behaviours but it's up to the handler to recognise that..

Rascal

[Naj]

I agree that it is possible to improve on things with an older dog, but what generally happens, especially when dummy work is being used as a remedy, is that as soon as the dog & handler get back into a shooting environment the dog quickly reverts back to tried & trusted methods &/or the handler is so taken up in the moment that they let things slip again. How many dogs are put through a 'refresher course' at the end of each season, and the season after et al ...? Unfortunately, dogs learn in context, and with an experienced dog stuff (re -) learnt on dummies doesn't necessarily transfer to the shooting field, so if behaviours are that important to you then you need to maintain them during shooting conditions. Use them or lose them, as they say.

Naj

[gorse and granite]

Naj, thanks for reply. Yes, 3 yrs old but we were slow to start and slow to progress, well I was not her! She's good overall and I'm pleased with her so if she is the 'finished article' I'm happy but she does seem keen to learn and does learn /do new things, but unlearning and relearning my mistakes might be harder! on game she is fine, goes straight in and finds very quickly from marking or scenting if not seen and is v quick. so you're right it's only dummies that cause her to 'fall off' so maybe just live with it and train the new puppy (10 weeks) better in time! learn from experience! the last thing I want is misery for either of us. may try as she loves learning and training and it'll help me for the future but we can leave if it becomes a stress.
when I send her back she goes back about 10/15 metres and then changes direction. I'm happy to keep practising and slowly improving. no rush!
thanks

[gorse and granite]

Rascal,
I take no offence and completely concur. She is both an excellent and efficient dog and well liked and respected on the shoot. She is very biddable, keen to please, very obedient but also has initiative (in built skills?) with plenty of good genes. She has achieved all this despite me, bless her, and I'd be the first to say so! we've got time and patience so I'm keen to understand and remedy, as well as learning for next time (new puppy now 10 weeks old)
yes, the last point is worth noting and I will work with that in mind.
very glad of all help, explanations etc as much easier if I understand why as well as how to work on something.