E-Touch / E-Collar training

[cornishman]

Thank you martin for taking the time to answer questions, for myself i use your approach to the e collar .As a training AID i would call it a tool of refinement , as an ex service man i call it spit and polish to give a shiny finish to your training . Hope this makes sense Brian

[cornishman]

So, what would you be trying to do with a collar that you couldn't achieve by taking time to train the dog and by always being consistent in your training? Why would anyone want to spend the best part of the price of a puppy in a training device which may or may not work depending on how well the "trainer" thinks through the problem before they use it? Evey single collar I have seen in use has been misused sooner or later, like our walking sticks which we are all guilty of tapping our dogs with in an absent minded moment the e-collar will be used wrongly unless the handler is well disciplined.

Train the dog properly in the first place and you wont need the collar (although I too have found my walking stick handy and no my dogs aren't stick shy nor does it hurt them!!).

Judy

Maybe you can answer Judys questions Brian

[cornishman]

Thats exactly my point, Terry, I don't set out to willingly "tap" , its an absent- minded stupid thing to do not an 'aid' to training!!
Although it does save my throat / back / face, take your pick of those!
To set out to willingly and routinely 'zap' at whatever level is not my idea of training. As a last resort punishment then maybe but even then all we are doing is putting right faults in training, at least in the way its used in this country.

If we use it to tap the dog which is doing its own thing how sure can the average trainer be that the dog is simply not understanding what its supposed to be doing at that point in time? In which case we are shocking the dog for not understanding, surely?

Judy

Judy if you read my early post it states i use the collar when the dog has been trained to the point where i can be sure its disobedience not confusion Brian

[sandra]

I am following this post with interest, I have an older dog that has always been a chaser when the excitement level bubbles over and I can now recognise this and can use the collar as a reminder at the point of flush to listen to me and not chase. This does not happen all the time but I have learnt to spot the signs. I would never entertain using a collar on my other dog because I know it would ruin him, he has a much softer temperament and I can correct him with a growl.
Because I am acutely aware of the need to understand the use of the ecollar I wonder why it is so difficult to find any help in this country. When researching their use I looked to find somewhere to go for some training with it but drew a blank. I guess no-one is prepared to put their head above the parapet and I can understand why because they would be worried about some sort of prosecution especially now the subject has raised it's head again with the ban in Wales.
Thank you Martin for joining in this discussion, your comments are extremely useful.

[duzza]

I have also been following this post with interest because about a year ago I was at my wits end with my terrier eating every thing in sight. He would eat everything vile that you can imagine fox poo etc. then throw it up all over my cream carpet. If I ever tried to get the stuff off him he would run away and swallow what ever it was hole (I once watched him crunch through a hole rabbit head he'd found I could not catch him for all the tea in china) The final straw was when I caught him eating rat poison, which resulted in 3 nights in the vets and an emergency blood transfusion!!!

So I then decided I had to do some thing fast and I researched the e-collar, but in doing so I found a collar that used compressed air with or without a citronella scent. I thought I’d give this a go before I tried the e-collar. It has a range of up to 300 metres witch was great as I used to take him out while I rode my horse so it meant I could stop him eating stuff where ever I was.

This has worked fantastic I used to zap him a shot leave at the same time every time I saw him munching on one of his favourite nastys and with in a couple of blasts he thought better of it I, still now if I tell him to leave something he does with out hesitation.

So although some people might be a bit worried or unsure about the e-collar I think that this might be the alternative. That said if this collar had not worked for my terrier I would have defo had a re-think about e-collar because it had turned in to a matter of life and death for my greedy terrier!!

Hope this as put a different spin on the discution

Kay

[Martindeeley]

Thank you martin for taking the time to answer questions, for myself i use your approach to the e collar .As a training AID i would call it a tool of refinement , as an ex service man i call it spit and polish to give a shiny finish to your training . Hope this makes sense Brian

I would agree with you Brian and also it can be used to build the foundations extremely well. That is its versatility.
Many consider the e-collar to be punishment and correction alone. It really is not. If I tap you on the arm to get your attention do you consider that punishment. If I rest a hand on your shoulder apply light pressure and ask you to sit in th seat under you, do you call that punishment or pain. If I smack you on the arm or on top of the shoulder that would be uncomfortable I admit and may not get the response you want. But you are in control. You are the trainer.Yes others may use it in a temper, we would not of course. We never loose our temper. It is others we are concerned about. So now we doubt our fellow man. If they are to loose their temper then they will loose it without the collar also. I find I am so much more under control in the training situations, rarely does my blood pressure rise. I can touch, distract, gain attention, tell them to leave something in a very gentle way at any time in a calm voice. The collar creates the attention. And not in a punishing way.

As for the air collar. I have used it and it is good as a pure aversive. But dogs react very strongly to this when it is first used. As a training tool it is useless. It is a correction tool. For versatility the e-collar beats everything. It can provide just the right touch at the right time.

The secret is in the introduction, teaching the dog to understand what it means and to how to respond. In doing this the dog gains more confidence in you because it all becomes clear. If you think about it you are helping him with a tactile sensation as well as a verbal or sound one. And of course he becomes more confident in you because you are more confident with being able to take control of every situation. No shouting, no running no chasing down, no long line after the introduction., no crazy whistle blasts and no frustration and annoyance on your face which sends wrong messages to your dog.

Brian writes
Judy if you read my early post it states i use the collar when the dog has been trained to the point where i can be sure its disobedience not confusion Brian

Again when correcting or using as a punishment that is right. But why only use it for this. Do you save your hands only for punishment or the stick you carry, or the leash. Is the slip collar only used because we punish the dog with it when he goes wrong. Come on. We can apply so many different intensities with all and communicate so differently with all. We can do the same with the e-collar.

The answer with all these tools lies in the hands of yourselves. The trainer.

Martin

[cornishman]

Thank you much appreciated, i look upon it as a tool of refinement and versatility when used correctly Brian

[trekmoor]

Hi Martin, I'm not trying to steal your thread but I do hope to clear up something which may cause confusion to the handler and therefor to the dog. I believe in training just one thing at a time with an e- collar ...or with a clicker for that matter. I will train for a sit or for a recall but these are done separately with a time interval in between. Do you do that too or do you find that you can mix them right from the start ? I am aware that with a fully trained dog - or as near as a dog can ever be considered to be fully trained, the commands can be "mixed" but for a youngster - do you train by e-collar keeping things completely separate to begin with ?

Wullie

[Martindeeley]

I teach them one at a time but I keep adding teh new one to the one I taught before. I teach Come on/follow me first - this is the intorduction. Then Here to come right up to me, then sit and then down if I wish it to.

The collar initially is a light negative reinforcement but I believe very quickly it becomes a prompt. I mostly teach all the commands, after follow me, without the e-collar first and then prompt with the collar once they know the command. It is a prompt to the command. And this is where the meaning of the collar changes. At first it is a mild negative reinforcement to get the dog to come towards you or at least turn, I use a long line to guide the dog. Then I believe the collar becomes a prompt followed by being also a reinforcer of the command - a 'do it' tap. Then I believe the dog begins to understand the collar so much it begins to be a - change what you are doing - sometimes without the command as the dog realizes this is what is required. For example,you have trained your dog to sit at the shot. One time he doesnt you tap the collar and he says - ooops I forgot and without a command he sits because the circumstances relate to that action and he decides that is what he will do. If you give a command he changes to that action. If no command but a tap he makes his decision based on what is happening around him and teh environment. The dog can do this.

And yes initially you are tapping on many commands but once more you begin to phase it out as you gain reliability. .

I want a dog to make the right decisions, so, many times I do not give a command, but tap the collar once the dog is well on its way in its training. You would be surprised what they really do know. And now they are doing by themselves and it becomes a habit.

Martin

[scotsgent]

Martin,

This is turning into a brillaint thread - thank you for your time.

I have a couple of questions regarding the PROCESS:

1) Collar conditioning. I understand the need for this, but only have vague idea as to the frequency/method of collar familiarisation on the dog; (wearing, de-activated), prior to actual use. Whats the timescale? Anything to watch for here?

Also, if i read your reply above right, then its good to work on one command (say the recall) as a method of initially getting the dog to understand the connection between tap and compliance. So, my 10 month old Cocker has a pretty sound recall, though I would like to speed it up (on scented ground, where ALL her senses seem to double in efficiency, she rockets back (motivated I think, to be re-directed and to be hunted on). In a more commonplace situation she may only 'trot' back!. What I mean here is that she already has this learned command and I just need to polish it. Would this activity, for instance make a good candidate for a 'first' exercise in order to condition her?

2) Timing the 'tap' Could you say a little more about timing in relation to 'tap' and command? Do you always use them instananeously or perhaps the tap then command? (or whatever?) - please expand a little on this. Also do you never use the continuous stimulation? or can everything you need (for normal training) be achieved with the single pulse?

3) Collar devices/features and range I know Tri-tronics has the very best reputation, but these are pretty expensive here. Sportdog and Innotek are more readily available. I guess manufacturers wilL allways express the most optimistic range for their devices. For a Spaniel, what range is required? (what I mean here is that I know in theory, that 50 meters TRUE range might be OK), but what 'nominal range' as expressed by a manufacturer would be the minimum you would recommend. In fact, maybe you could just give a run-down on what you think makes a good collar, even if you are reluctant to mention manufacturers?

Many thanks. Terry