E-Touch / E-Collar training

[Martindeeley]

The weekends before Game Fair - 17th & 18th July 2010 and 31st July &1st Aug would be thee easiest for me as I can come over early or stay late. I can get a place to run it in Mid Sussex as i say but if there are other more central venues, let me know. Be pleased to do one provided enough people are interested. Please dont think I am pushing this - - but I would like to help if you feel it worthwhile.

Martin

[trekmoor]

In a way that might be a better idea. I't would help avoid the game fair hordes and cars and jacked up B+B prices ! Personally I'd certainly prefer a central location .

Wullie.

[sandra]

I'd definately be up for one of these workshops and would be willing to travel a reasonable distance, I'm not very central to anyone so no point suggesting a venue but am willing to help out in any way I can.

[Lynn]

I would, also, be very interested in the workshop. Either weekend could be convenient. Just received "Grey Matters" the newsletter from the Weimaraner Association (I know I don't have grey beasties ) and was rather dismayed at the article on "shocking cases of electric shock collar misuse" It makes you feel like a leper

[Martindeeley]

I would, also, be very interested in the workshop. Either weekend could be convenient. Just received "Grey Matters" the newsletter from the Weimaraner Association (I know I don't have grey beasties ) and was rather dismayed at the article on "shocking cases of electric shock collar misuse" It makes you feel like a leper

The problem is Lynne that some have used the collar incorrectly and some still do. I have seen it. But then many have also used every tool incorrectly.

Everyone is allowed his or her opinion. Too often it is based on entrenched emotions, fixed narrow thinking and an unwillingness to gain experience or even watch someone using equipment correctly. The barriers to open-mindedness go up. I had barriers when I first came over to USA. It took a while to knock them down with me because I saw incorrect use. But then I remembered incorrect use of every tool I had seen in the field; including by myself. If we looked emotionally at the incorrect use of every tool and not just in dog training, we would not have any tools at all.
I am often left wondering why some people think so badly of their fellow man. Is it because they know they would use it abusively themselves and therefore feel others obviously would. Or has trust and belief in people now disappeared?

I could write articles on how leashes are the cruelest thing I have seen out there and definitely choke chains, never mind the squirming and antics I have seen with Head Halters. Oh and don’t forget the walking stick. I even remember once seeing a dummy launcher being used as a rubber bullet against a dog. But e-collars are the topic of today.

Nah, the problem is few are willing to stand up and talk openly because they are afraid of being painted with the cruelty brush. I once had a lady admire my dogs and the husband said – “Well, you would expect them to come when called and obey commands – he has a dog whistle!” So that is all you need. A whistle to command them and an e-collar that automatically trains them. Oh and it can also train them to wag their tails – they do that because we make them do it with the collar. It would be funny if it were not so sad.

You know you do not abuse your dogs, you know you would not do this no matter what tool you used. You train your dogs with care, commitment and consideration, so don’t feel guilty talking about how you work. Find out and educate yourself on every tool, make your own decision and when others admire you and your dogs at the training game, just smile when they say – well she used a dog whistle. They use excuses for your success to justify their own failures.

Martin

[fishglyn]

one of the best threads i have read on this subject ,very informative, just a shame that they are to be banned here in wales.

[Snicklefritz]

I feel the need to speak up here for a bit. Martin's arguement that the problem is with the trainer, and not the tool, is valid. But, the response to people who argue against ecollars is typically something like...'You could be just as cruel with a leash, a choke-chain, bird-shot, sling-shot, ropes, or plain verbal abuse.' That's a true statemente. But, this aguement is very weak because it resorts to justifying one potentially abusive technique by comparison to another potentially abusive technique. Arguements for ecollar use need to stand on their own, without apologetics.

If there were only the ecollar, or bird-shot as a training method this might fly. But, this is a false dichotomy. There are more than two alternatives. There are alternatives to both that don't involve the risk of abuse at all. I'm talking about using positive reinforcement methods that involve teaching, attrition and other proven techniques that don't involve abuse of any kind.

So, IMHO, ecollars should not be measured against other older methods that involved a great deal of force, and the possibility of abuse, but against methods that are succesful, and carry little or no risk of the handler harming the dog.

But, Martin is quite correct in saying that those who are entrenched on either side of the issue need very much to give the other side a very serious look before they lynch good, sincere, and honorable people without a fair and objective discussion of the issues.

There is a middle way - Snick

[Martindeeley]

I feel the need to speak up here for a bit. Martin's arguement that the problem is with the trainer, and not the tool, is valid. But, the response to people who argue against ecollars is typically something like...'You could be just as cruel with a leash, a choke-chain, bird-shot, sling-shot, ropes, or plain verbal abuse.' That's a true statemente. But, this aguement is very weak because it resorts to justifying one potentially abusive technique by comparison to another potentially abusive technique. Arguements for ecollar use need to stand on their own, without apologetics.

If there were only the ecollar, or bird-shot as a training method this might fly. But, this is a false dichotomy. There are more than two alternatives. There are alternatives to both that don't involve the risk of abuse at all. I'm talking about using positive reinforcement methods that involve teaching, attrition and other proven techniques that don't involve abuse of any kind.

So, IMHO, ecollars should not be measured against other older methods that involved a great deal of force, and the possibility of abuse, but against methods that are succesful, and carry little or no risk of the handler harming the dog.

But, Martin is quite correct in saying that those who are entrenched on either side of the issue need very much to give the other side a very serious look before they lynch good, sincere, and honorable people without a fair and objective discussion of the issues.

There is a middle way - Snick

I understand where you are coming from but....... Positive techniques can create abuse - they can create mental abuse. I have seen a dog poorly trained using food and clicker that totally closed down and went into a state of mental collapse. I have seen dogs that did not get the rewards they expected even after trying because they got it wrong and closed down. Negative punishment (Withholding an expected reward) is the quadrant that positive trainers embrace and yet it can be just as abusive - mentally. Anything can be applied incrrectly.

The most powerful tool in fact I would suggest is negative reinforcement and it does not have to be abusive - it can mean moving from a less comfortable zone to a more comfortable zone when the behavior is correct. It does not have to be abusive. . Now lets forget abuse. Is it fair to a dog to use only positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement when it is not training and achieving results. I would suggest it could cause stress because the dog when not being successful does not receive the rewards he expects. Positive reinforcement people tell me that when a dog pulls on the leash that you stand like a tree or move the other way. That in fact is negative reinforcement and may be seen by some dogs in fact as positive punishment.

Some of the true positive reinforcement people fool themselves in to the belief that they are being kind all the time to the dog because they do not use positive punishment or negative reinforcement. Not true. They all use it to some degree. Not to a strong pressure degree but they use it and so do we - not to a high pressure degree and we can that with the e-collar. Why is it that PP trainers condemn us when really they also practice similar principles but with different tools or approaches.

Therefore if they use positive reinforcement approaches but with other means of applying negative reinforcement and positive punishment, then I would suggest we do the same but with a different tool.

Let me also ask what is positive reinforcement. It is the addition of a stimulus following a command to increase the frequency of a wanted behavior. Now although we attempt to prompt with the collar at the same time as the command, most times the stimulation follows briefly behind the command and the dog then gives us an improved behavior. Not sure but this may be called a primary reinforcer, dare I say positive reinforcement. Or how about when teaching your dog to accept the tap of a collar, you pair it with a treat. I have done that – just like a clicker – therefore it becomes a positive secondary reinforcer.

I am not debating positive against positive because we all use a high degree of positive reinforcement. In fact with gundogs it is even stronger than those who do everyday obedience because hunting and retrieving is intrinsic in the work. A natural inherited skill. The positive group often add the reward in the form of food after the behavior has occurred and is an add on to the work – it is extrinsic and therefore nowhere near as powerful I would suggest. I am not debating bad use of tools against good positive reinforcers because we all use positive reinforcers. If you wish I will debate the use of an e-collar correctly against the use of a clicker and food incorrectly. And I have seen that used incorrectly many times.

I do not believe anyone can train a dog with only positive reinforcement and negative punishment. A 'No!' Is a positive punishment if reduces the frequency of an unwanted behavior.

So once more I can understand where you are coming from Chuck but I am not completely comparing apples with oranges. Food, clickers, voice, touch and other what many may cosnider positive approaches can be equally as 'abusive'. And note I did not mention the PP trainers wonderful tool of choice - the Head halter.

Dare I say that you are comparing apples with oranges - you are comparing an e-collar (a piece of equipment) against modern methods (an approach) . Note methods. So lets compare apples with apples. The method we use with a leash and collar today is far more humane than it was 20 years ago and likewise so can the method we use with the e-collar.

Martin

[trekmoor]

Nah, the problem is few are willing to stand up and talk openly because they are afraid of being painted with the cruelty brush.

You know you do not abuse your dogs, you know you would not do this no matter what tool you used. You train your dogs with care, commitment and consideration, so don’t feel guilty talking about how you work. Find out and educate yourself on every tool, make your own decision and when others admire you and your dogs at the training game, just smile when they say – well she used a dog whistle. They use excuses for your success to justify their own failures.

Martin

Here, here !

Wullie

[cornishman]

So true