AMS in cockers.

[Judy]

Even if the figures turn out to be half that its still too many isn't it? But the opposite could also apply given how many Cockers share too few ancestors, there may be a far higher percentage, lets all pray that there isn't.

[jeffiner]

I think you'll find that the percentages are of the total tested so no distortion there. Those that have tested due to POSSIBLE links in the pedigree are correct in doing so - they MAY have a higher risk of breeding affected dogs. It doesn't alter the figures or percentages. At this stage we don't know how widespread the condition is so testing and being open about the results is the only way to find out. We are hearing of more cases in the past that have been undiagnosed and only now that we have established what the condition is are people saying they've come across it before. Too late for those unfortunate souls but no excuses from now on.

[scot-ish]

I think you'll find that the percentages are of the total tested so no distortion there. Those that have tested due to POSSIBLE links in the pedigree are correct in doing so - they MAY have a higher risk of breeding affected dogs. It doesn't alter the figures or percentages. At this stage we don't know how widespread the condition is so testing and being open about the results is the only way to find out. We are hearing of more cases in the past that have been undiagnosed and only now that we have established what the condition is are people saying they've come across it before. Too late for those unfortunate souls but no excuses from now on.

the % is not distorted on the figures listed by Antagene - you are correct - that is a fact.

but for a breed average, i think the figures are slightly distorted, given the common links with the affected/carriers - people are testing due to being somehow closely linked to a carrier/affected dog. to my mind that will give a higher % than what is really there.

agreed as above, there are still too many cases, and hopefully we can breed away from carrier/carrier and reduce this completely. a carrier is no worse of than a clear, as long as the breeding programme takes the carrier status into consideration.

[Bamburi]

a carrier is no worse of than a clear, as long as the breeding programme takes the carrier status into consideration.

[jeffiner]

And therein lies the problem Scot - ish. It is the irresponsible who will not test, who will not take the carrier into consideration, will not pass on the necessary information, will not put an endorsement on pups if unsure of their status to ensure that there are no future carrier/carrier mating.

[Teddy]

And therein lies the problem Scot - ish. It is the irresponsible who will not test, who will not take the carrier into consideration, will not pass on the necessary information, will not put an endorsement on pups if unsure of their status to ensure that there are no future carrier/carrier mating.

Exactly, very well put.

[Plainsman]

And therein lies the problem Scot - ish. It is the irresponsible who will not test, who will not take the carrier into consideration, will not pass on the necessary information, will not put an endorsement on pups if unsure of their status to ensure that there are no future carrier/carrier mating.

One of the factors in this whole sorry saga is the fact that some people have been so strident over this problem. I have seen on Facebook when people have been harangued for saying they are going to put a bitch in pup and the whole thread has instantly been hijacked by people. This actually happened yesterday culminating with accusations of puppy farming which were totally uncalled for. A lot of people are quietly testing and making sensible breeding plans and not screaming from the rafters about it. People who have become self appointed guardians of the breed insist that everything is tested and all results are published. You don't need have it both ways, if someone tests and finds a carrier and quietly takes it out of the breeding pool that is fine. If, as you insist everything must be tested, you do not need to know all the results. You say about carriers being bred from, I have seen people virtually pilloried for having a carrier so is it any wonder that people are keeping quiet?

I think the way this is being approached is wrong. By all means inform people of the facts and you then have to trust people to make decisions. You might not like them but the way people are being aggressively approached can often have the opposite effect.

Beechessam has made some very valid points on this thread which have mainly been ignored. The full facts are not known. Encourage people to test by all means but be mindful that the way you approach people can often have the opposite effect from the one you desire. I do agree with testing and fully support health tests for all breeds. PRA and other eye diseases are very unpleasant as is Fuco and other genetic problems. Hip displaysia, luxating patella and many other complaints are awful but the whole AMS problem is reaching virtual hysteria.

I don't think anybody wants to breed or own a pup with this problem but human nature dictates that the more some people are pushed the more they dig their feet in. The fact is some people with carriers have been made rightly or wrongly to feel very guilty about I so is it any wonder they feel reluctant to release their results?

[Judy]

I think if everyone shouts their results from the rooftops regardless of whether they are clear, carriers or affected we may stand an excellent chance of eradicating this disease before it becomes totally embedded, if not its a disease which will remain within the breed which, I believe, is seriously sad when we do have a chance, right now, of fixing it. But, you are right, people can be put off, probably too easily, by attitudes on the internet.

[Libby]

Have been following this with interest, couldn't agree more Plainsman.

[beechessam]

I think if everyone shouts their results from the rooftops regardless of whether they are clear, carriers or affected we may stand an excellent chance of eradicating this disease before it becomes totally embedded, if not its a disease which will remain within the breed which, I believe, is seriously sad when we do have a chance, right now, of fixing it. But, you are right, people can be put off, probably too easily, by attitudes on the internet.

This for me sums up the confusion surrounding AMS.

We still have the chance to eradicate the disease before it becomes embedded. Yes I believe we do. But here's the confusion. AMS is not a new disease, it seems people are reporting cases and pinpointing dogs from 4-5-6-7 generations back in pedigrees, dogs long since dead.

10% of the population are carriers we are told.

So with my very basic schoolboy maths, every 11 matings should result in carrier to carrier being put together.

Let's be generous and say every 20 matings to help my figures.

20,000 cocker pups registered last year, average 5 pups a litter means 4000 litters. If 1 in 20 matings was carrier to carrier, well below the 10% that means 200 carrier to carrier litters. So 200 litters, 5 pups in each 1000 pups by carrier to carrier matings. That would give us 500 affected pups born last year.

We are either on a time bomb that should have already exploded, or my figures are so badly wrong I need to go back to school, hang my head in shame and never post again or something really doesn't add up.

I'm sure the more mathematical minds will help correct the figures but the but once they do I'm sure I will be saying the same thing.

It doesn't add up and we need to learn a lot more before we start making statements of fact because all we have right now is rumour, misinformation and borderline hysteria