AMS in cockers.

[beechessam]

Who's bullying and demonising those with carriers?

It's happening and that's a fact!

[James]

[Teddy]

[Plainsman]

Who's bullying and demonising those with carriers?

Maybe the same people making accusations that people are puppy farmers because they won't say in public if their dogs are tested or not?

If people are saying that all breeding cockers, male and female must be tested that's fine and I actually would not disagree at all with that but I would not try to force that belief on anyone else. If that is what these people want that's fine but that makes the demand that all tests must be declared in the public arena total overkill as only the tests of the potential parents are relevant. I do wonder why they are so desperate to know.

Beechessam and Bwana have both put forward excellent recent posts that at last bring some common sense to this debate.

[scot-ish]

Yet it's implied that prominent sires, with the exception of Boots could be the problem.

I am actually meaning the opposite, prominent sires - now i dont think are the problem, i also hope they arent the problem too.

its hard to explain what i mean.

i think, the facts state, that the 9 or 10% or whatever tested are carriers.

that is fair enough- but those dogs tested have mostly been tested through reason, In my opinion these figures show a high % as nearly all tested dogs, were done so due to suspicion of them being a carrier. every one of these dogs born from a carrier had a 50% chance of being tested as a carrier. that is not representative of the breed, and will raise the 10% way higher than inspected.

to try to put it another way. if you wanted to test the UK average of people who use PEDS (steroids) you wouldnt just go around testing everyone in gyms and make the assumption that of the 500 tested, 50 were positive results, so 10% of the UK population are on PEDS. its not a representative sample to gain that information.

take the same number of dogs, test pups from Gun, Grand, boots and then some other "random dogs" and the figures would be less than half imho.

4 of the affected pups are from 1 dog, via two matings.

I agree that if 10% or more was the genuine representative figure, then this would be more widespread that it is.

just for example - and people might think this is a dig, but its not, i am trying to explain why the figures dont add up, and make it look works.

there is 1 breeder on CSDB. who has owns/bred 5 carriers at minimum. as well as 3 affected dogs coming from them lines. that is well above the breed average, and as the "tested pool" at 260 is so small - that will have a massive effect on the percentage.

My opinion on it is- yes, there is plenty more to learn about it. no everyone wont test, no matter what is suggested. there are people out there who have been breeding for years, have forgotten more about cocker spaniels and breeding then this forum combined - and have yet to have an affected dog tied back to them. i think myself that speaks for their breeding strategy.

anyways, i wont be commenting much more on this thread/topic- as it seems to be going round in circles now.

apologies if anyone person feels like this is a rant aimed at them as it is not, is just some bits and pieces in general about it.

[Weardalesman]

I have been following the AMS topic for some time, perhaps its time to take a rational view of this condition?
We could be allowing the current lack of actual evidence relating to AMS, to cloud proper judgement.
The position of both the KC and Antagene is that carriers should NOT be excluded from a breeding programme.
If the cockers working abilities are to be maintained and improved, use of the best proven sires and dams available is essential.
I for one would, without hesitation choose the progeny of either sire or dam of proven ability, even if one is a carrier, than have one from " fully tested clear with less working ability.


,

[beechessam]

Scot ish, we seem to agree on most if not all.

[scot-ish]

The position of both the KC and Antagene is that carriers should NOT be excluded from a breeding programme.
If the cockers working abilities are to be maintained and improved, use of the best proven sires and dams available is essential.
I for one would, without hesitation choose the progeny of either sire or dam of proven ability, even if one is a carrier, than have one from " fully tested clear with less working ability.

Totally agreed. I would not hesitate to breed from a carrier sire should he fit what i aim to add to my line, the only difference is that I would make my sure my bitch was clear. breed, take my pup as normal, follow the same process, and should I decide that pups fits in my breeding/line that I am aiming for, then AMS becomes a consideration - i would then test her - and pick a sire which I think best suits the bill, and so on, and so forth.

there is a Stigma attached to AMS just now like its the plague, not the case - just a slight bit more thought needs to go into the breeding, and and extra £45 for an AMS test.

for a clear bitch, you have the same choice you had previously prior to AMS rearing its head. for a carrier bitch, there lies the restriction- and its your care for the breed which determines which stud you choose to use.

[Hepe]

I am a puppy buyer, not a puppy breeder. I want the best i can get, simple as that. I want dogs putting my own abilities to shame, dogs with natural ability needing as little training as possible. No hassle, just straight forward doers. I also want them to be healthy but that goes without saying for me, same as i assume that anyone breeding hunting dogs do that because they think they breed the best hunting dogs ever. I see heavy duty trial persons mutter about people using health tests as a sales argument without backing it up with real value. It may be so in some cases but seriously, stop muttering about what others do or don't, focus on your thing. If you are sure no icky stuff lurk behind, just skip the tests, you'll prolly get your dogs sold anyhow, right?

Helene

[Bwana]

The position of both the KC and Antagene is that carriers should NOT be excluded from a breeding programme.
If the cockers working abilities are to be maintained and improved, use of the best proven sires and dams available is essential.
I for one would, without hesitation choose the progeny of either sire or dam of proven ability, even if one is a carrier, than have one from " fully tested clear with less working ability.

Totally agreed. I would not hesitate to breed from a carrier sire should he fit what i aim to add to my line, the only difference is that I would make my sure my bitch was clear. breed, take my pup as normal, follow the same process, and should I decide that pups fits in my breeding/line that I am aiming for, then AMS becomes a consideration - i would then test her - and pick a sire which I think best suits the bill, and so on, and so forth.

there is a Stigma attached to AMS just now like its the plague, not the case - just a slight bit more thought needs to go into the breeding, and and extra £45 for an AMS test.

for a clear bitch, you have the same choice you had previously prior to AMS rearing its head. for a carrier bitch, there lies the restriction- and its your care for the breed which determines which stud you choose to use.

Well put. I agree absolutely.