training session frequency

[ips]

Yes naj your right it was Milner.
Have to say that imho training every day consistently must surely be the best idea as long as the dog enjoys it.

[kennel maiden]

Yes naj your right it was Milner.
Have to say that imho training every day consistently must surely be the best idea as long as the dog enjoys it.

Yes, but there is also a phenomenon known as 'latent learning' whereby dogs actually learn more from having a rest/day off, where they process the information (new pathways connected in the brain) and come out having actually learnt more. So, having a 'day off' every couple of days is a good idea.

[newf]

know

Hepe
First off I use the ball as a reward for her stopping on the whistle just before my field were there is a gateway to a stable block, I don't want her running over the gateway until I am there to ensure no cars coming out. Then she has a run about with her ball for a bit and generally has a comfort break. Then I throw her ball for five mins and allow run ins, she can do what she wants with ball, run in throw it at me drop it whatever. Then the ball goes in pocket and we do some steady retrieves with dummy for ten mins or so incorporating the odd sit stay. Then I do some quartering with her which gives me the opportunity of placing some dummies as blinds when she isn't watching me. Ball comes out again as a reward for stops to whistle then I do some seek backs (I think that's what they are) to the blinds placed earlier she loves these. Then as a reward for all her hard work I let her play with the ball. She knows the difference between steady with dummy and free play with ball and this is exactly what I intended to train from day one. On the hundred yard walk back home I do some stops with ball as reward.
I think it works out fine and I see no detriment to steadiness. Of course the above could be considered totally wrong I have no idea, I just make a lot of it up as we go along

o


First off, ips, once you have a dog stopping well on the whistle discontinue the ball throw and move the reward on to the intended target like a planted retrieve. The ball throw is just a means to reward stopping at a distance in the beginning and then infrequently as maintenance.

Training is basically control, so this running off steam is just the time I would use it to my advantage and get the dog accustomed to shifting gears quickly and tune into the trainer through ob or actual steady retrieving. When you both go to a shoot and step out of the vehicle it may be good that you have conditioned the dog to control it's impulses and look to you for direction.

Throwing too many unrestrained retrieves can undo or weaken your hard work on steadiness. If training well, the dog experiences it all as a game so it is easy to cause confusion from contradiction of what is okay one minute and bad the next. Later, as the dog gets more experience and truly demonstrates an understanding of the concepts of what you have been training then you can get away with some things that are not of any training value.

And as to training frequency, since you're referring to Robert Milner, the gist of what I get is from his last statement :

"The Copenhagen study says that the dog will be trained faster and to a higher level on the one-day-per-week schedule."

Milner goes on to say:

"This study demonstrated that less training is better. The schedule I recommend is every other day. This suggestion should be great news for those that think they don't have enough time to train a gun dog. "

My two cents to the above is that it helps to actually plan what you are intending to do and stick with it as much as possible. If you run sessions generally in an adhoc or random fashion then you may need more time. However, ips, it is your time and your enjoyment, so construct things as you like; if working, great ! and if not, you'll just have to figure out why not and adjust accordingly.

[ips]

Thanks newf
Good info there.
I see what you mean about letting off steam, my approach poss not ideal, I will change this to maybe heel work then a long blind hows that sound ?
Re the stop and ball reward, I will change this to stop and direction to planted blinds, hows that sound ?
I enjoy the training and pretty sure she does but as a trial I will drop to once a day with maybe one day a week off see how that goes.

Thanks for your reply kennelmaid.

[ips]

Ps
I like the idea that she has times that she can run in on balls be it with me or the wife but I don't want to effect the steadiness which is coming on well SO..
Never let her run in on a ball for me
Or
Never let her run in on ball before or after training session.
Or
Some other cunning plan.

[Springfield Pointers]

Ips. Guard against overthinking the process. You are, in fact, training the dog everytime you take it out. From throwing a ball in the park, to getting into a regimented intense session. In the digs mind it's all about being out and seeing the world you show it.

[Judy]

I train when I feel like it and if the dog isn't feeling like it we don't, I think its called the under-thinking method. The only routine they have is exercise twice a day during which I expect them to be under control but doing as they wish, I do have a go play command to ensure they know its down-time, then, if I call I expect them to come rollicking up, walk to heel if asked, sit and wait if asked, not formal training as we know it but it works for me. Retrieve training as and when I feel like it, the youngest I have had a dog out working is ten months the oldest 2 years, just depends on the dog and the time of year it was born. Too much scientific thinking / over thinking - its not rocket science! And I still think its much more to do with how you live with the dog not how often you train - you can train every day and still have a poor dog if the rest of the day its doing as it likes and generally ignoring you.

[Naj]

Re the Copenhagen study, I don't think it wise to read too much into this particular study because all the dogs had the same number of training sessions - 18 in total. It's just that some dog's training was spread out over several weeks & others condensed into a few days. All successfully acquired the behaviour & all still retained the information 4 weeks after acquisition.

Re latent learning, I think the dog training community has tended to wiggle the science around a bit to make it fit into our preconceptions. Strictly speaking latent learning doesn't involve previously learnt behaviours or attempts at previously teaching set behaviours. Latent learning involves the dog inadvertently learning stuff without any apparent reinforcement being present. The learnt behaviours only come to light when a suitable reinforcement is present. It doesn't necessarily imply that the dog has to be locked away to ruminate on its learning, something I don't think they are capable of in any event. I'm sure mine have never thought, hmmm I wonder how I can do that sit/stay better just to see the smile on the silly sod's face. I think what we tend to think of as latent learning is actually a pre-learning plateau, which is a natural part of learning where we get stuck when learning something new & don't seem to be able to move on with it. But whether you have a break or soldier on the end result will be the same - you will get over the sticking point. When dog training it saves frustration on handler & dog to have a break from the problem and come back to it later rather than soldiering on and, especially if using aversives, risk causing more problems than you hope to solve, & then when you return it may have 'mysteriously' disappeared.

Naj

[crackerd]

Re latent learning, I think the dog training community has tended to wiggle the science around a bit to make it fit into our preconceptions. Strictly speaking latent learning doesn't involve previously learnt behaviours or attempts at previously teaching set behaviours. Latent learning involves the dog inadvertently learning stuff without any apparent reinforcement being present. The learnt behaviours only come to light when a suitable reinforcement is present. It doesn't necessarily imply that the dog has to be locked away to ruminate on its learning, something I don't think they are capable of in any event. I'm sure mine have never thought, hmmm I wonder how I can do that sit/stay better just to see the smile on the silly sod's face. I think what we tend to think of as latent learning is actually a pre-learning plateau, which is a natural part of learning where we get stuck when learning something new & don't seem to be able to move on with it. But whether you have a break or soldier on the end result will be the same - you will get over the sticking point. When dog training it saves frustration on handler & dog to have a break from the problem and come back to it later rather than soldiering on and, especially if using aversives, risk causing more problems than you hope to solve, & then when you return it may have 'mysteriously' disappeared.

Quite right, too - only you don't wait a week before reenacting or restaging the situation that got the dog in trouble. Well, maybe if you're Milner and your precepts are based on dolphins taking a fish out of the hand of a trainer at Sea World. Which is to say, his cred for training for retrievers to do anything but retrieve (sorry, newf) is right up there with Eddie the Eagle Anderson (remember him?) as an Olympic ski jump adviser for Alpine nations. The flip side (our side) is, if you're competing (big if, I know) you train every day except the day you're competing on a different "concept" that you will encounter in a test or field trial. Retrievers don't just get a telepathic "off-day" understanding of a middle-retired-indented triple. Apropos the other thread, they may look you up and down asking, pleadingly with as much eye contact as they can muster, for help, however. Then you just might get a "no-go," which is what it says (the dog not going at all) and which from Milner and the Stockholm study perspective, would mean - voila! - another week off between training sessions...

MG

[ips]

All very interesting stuff that's for sure.

Well a day off yesterday didn't do us any favours and neither did not letting off steam first