how steady is steady

[Judy]

Six pages on and this was answered on the first! If the dog retrieves without "permission" its not steady. If you are trying to steady a dog whilst encouraging it to run in on some retrieves then you'll have your work cut out and I'm not sure its fair on the dog? My dogs were happy playing with the kids but when I took them out they didn't run in, different person different situation, different rules.

[Naj]

SP But you're making some sweeping (and traditional ) generalisations about a dog breaking on a ball retrieve. If the dog hasn't been taught to sit before being sent on a ball retrieve then it surely isn't 'breaking' on it. If you wanted the dog to sit for ball retrieves then you need to train for it, just as you have to do for dummy retrieves, especially if, as mentioned before, the ball retrieves have previously been used as unimpeded rewards. Dogs learn in context, whether we like it or not. If you insist that they be steady to balls & dummies then they will learn to be steady to both. If you insist on steadiness to dummies & game but allow chasing after balls then that's what they will do. One doesn't compromise the other. They do what you train them to do. This works well with reward based methods because you're looking to reward wanted behaviours, like steadiness, and you're specifically reserving balls for rewarding those wanted behaviours. If you work with a more traditional command based approach where 'sit means sit' and your training revolves around stopping the dog from doing unwanted behaviours like running-in then unsteady chases after balls would appear to undermine all that you are training for. But the last dog I trained traditionally I would let chase after balls & Frisbees when at exercise and she was as steady as a rock on game & dummies, so that's not been my experience.

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

For my money, any dog that is trained to be sent on a retrieve, that breaks on anything thrown or shot, without the ability to be stopped, is unsteady.

My dogs have all broken, and I'm sure others will too, but I hunt my dogs and sometimes fine tuning is necessary, trialling is fun, but I use it as a sharpening exercise to aid hunting. Without the pressure of trialling, I'm sure my dogs would be monsters.

I like to know my dogs will wait, and at the very least, stop if they forget their manners. I don't allow the dogs to decide - that's just me. I accept though, that I am in the fortunate position that I don't have to rely on throwing balls in order to exercise my dogs. But the theory remains.

[Rough_mut]

Hi Ips,

Out of interest, have you tried the sit and stay with a ball?

I have always find with my dog a ball is more 'prized' than a dummy, by that, I mean if i throw both out next to each other, he comes back with the ball. Given with mine it's a higher reward (prize choice etc), I would also assume it is a higher distraction.

So if it's a higher distraction, and a higher reward, then if I can get him to be steady to this then presumably dummies etc will follow?

There's no chance a ball is a higher reward than game, but if your dog is similar to the above, then I would presume any behaviour learnt and proofed on the greater object would be deeper learned for the dog?

rm

[ips]

Interesting point RM. No I have never tried (and wont be doing) but pretty sure if I did she would run in, after all that is what I have trained. You may have read my recently bumped early post were I state that this is were wanted to be I have remained consistent on this if nothing else. If I was a dog I would want some down time with my favourite toy without the necessity to do anything specific with it. I do not believe that free play with her ball has had a detrimental effect on steadiness, the time it has taken to get something like steady is purely my inexperience and lack of consistency with methods plus the fact that I have only recently learned to read her correctly and to engage with her.
I am sure you are correct, if you can steady to the most desirable thing you would be steady to anything, one assumes. But you would lose the reward.

[ips]

Six pages on and this was answered on the first! .

Bet your really glad I ask these questions Judy, certainly starts some very interesting debates.

[Rough_mut]

Interesting point RM. No I have never tried (and wont be doing) but pretty sure if I did she would run in, after all that is what I have trained. You may have read my recently bumped early post were I state that this is were wanted to be I have remained consistent on this if nothing else. If I was a dog I would want some down time with my favourite toy without the necessity to do anything specific with it. I do not believe that free play with her ball has had a detrimental effect on steadiness, the time it has taken to get something like steady is purely my inexperience and lack of consistency with methods plus the fact that I have only recently learned to read her correctly and to engage with her.
I am sure you are correct, if you can steady to the most desirable thing you would be steady to anything, one assumes. But you would lose the reward.

Just to play Devils advocate and all that....... If dog remains steady, and you send him for his favourite reward, why the need for any other reward?

Rm

[ips]

Um, well I no nothing really but I have always been a strange fellow and if I was a dog and all of sudden had to "work" for my favourite toy I would not want that toy anymore or not as much anyway as the moment would have gone plus I would not want it just to be awkward because you (or I) changed the goal posts.
That's how I see it but as I say I no nowt.

[Cass]

I just watched the video... like the rest of your videos, the dog is in my opinion quite calm natured for a cocker and very focused. She's actually doing very well in spite of her training (no offense!!!). I would be pushing her limits quite a bit at this point and insisting on perfection. I would love my dog to be that calm. Mine is a lot of fun to watch but it's because he's like a race car always on the verge of blowing a tire. Eze doesn't look like that to me, she's even natured and has a lot of self control from what I see. Cut the run in ball stuff, demand perfection, and move on to new things. Retrieving is good and all but its only a small part of a cocker's job. I won't repeat the trainer thing but go watch a trial or test and push yourself and your dog. Her occasional running in and other quirks are probably due to boredom.

[ips]

Thank you Cass, none taken

Yes I would like to see a FT or similar.

Ps
I am pleased with her I think she is doing well considering she has to cope with me