Labrador COI's

[Nickheref]

Possibly because it is an average ie the overall litter may be slightly less vigorous etc but not all individuals. I have bred poultry as a hobby all my life and line breed, the main reason for this is to run a closed flock so I do not bring in disease (not inherited diseases but some of the nasties that are out there in poultry) and keep the best birds of their generation when I need replacements, I do not just pick birds at random so I believe the size and vigour issue is at least partly negated by my intervention and assessment of the birds. The vast majority of the birds are killed at 6 months old for the freezer so I find it more difficult to comment on the effect of life expectancy but have not had any issues with breeding birds dying young, most get to about 8 or 9 yeaqrs old with one or two over that. The oldest animal on the place is a gander who is now 15 and remains fertile. I also think requirements for dogs are slightly different, I would happily exchange a reduction in litter size, which in percentage terms may be significant say from 10 to 8, if the pups are going to do what I want them to rather than have a large litter of useless ones. However this would be a potential problem for say pig breeders.

[Matt]

Hopefully the experienced breeders have PM'd you...

AS I understand it a lower CoI is healthier in that there are fewer genes duplicated, the higher the CoI creeps the smaller the litters are and the less likely they are to be healthy, a simplistic and generalised view perhaps, there is no doubt, however, that the wider the gene pool the healthier the breed.

As for Cockers, they are getting so inbred there's going to be trouble in the future its a scary thought. Mind you, there maybe enough illicit Springer blood in there to stave off the inevitable for a while...

Very interested in the bit in bold? Where is the data that supports that? I've never noticed this phenomenon?

It has to be remembered that the COI for Labradors of about 6.5% is taken from the whole gene pool, of show, pet and working. In reality, it is highly unlikely that any of us with highly bred working Labradors are going to mate them to show Labradors, so this COI is really not realistic for the working Labrador population.

My labs have COI of 5.1% and 5.4% - so it's not hard really. There are so many labs bred that it isn't tricky to find one with a below breed average COI, health tested parents, and from proven working lines. As Vicky said - COI isn't the only thing to look at - but is one part of the overall picture.

[kennel maiden]

But isn't it a bit of a blunt tool? In theory if you mate two different breeds together they would have a COI of 0% but pups could still be prone to eye and hip problems if both of the parent breeds are affected by these problems as they will both carry genes for them even though they are not related in any way or have I completely misunderstood it?

Kennelmaiden; http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org ... inbreeding

OMG @ that article Judy!!!!! LOL. Anything above 5% is gloom and doom??!!! Well, that means the 'average' Labrador is too high, and heaven help some of the other breeds then??!! Scary.

As I say, can't say I have ever noticed smaller litter sizes with higher COIs, but then most of my dogs are already over 4% anyway, so are doomed!....

[kennel maiden]

Hopefully the experienced breeders have PM'd you...

AS I understand it a lower CoI is healthier in that there are fewer genes duplicated, the higher the CoI creeps the smaller the litters are and the less likely they are to be healthy, a simplistic and generalised view perhaps, there is no doubt, however, that the wider the gene pool the healthier the breed.

As for Cockers, they are getting so inbred there's going to be trouble in the future its a scary thought. Mind you, there maybe enough illicit Springer blood in there to stave off the inevitable for a while...

Very interested in the bit in bold? Where is the data that supports that? I've never noticed this phenomenon?

It has to be remembered that the COI for Labradors of about 6.5% is taken from the whole gene pool, of show, pet and working. In reality, it is highly unlikely that any of us with highly bred working Labradors are going to mate them to show Labradors, so this COI is really not realistic for the working Labrador population.

My labs have COI of 5.1% and 5.4% - so it's not hard really. There are so many labs bred that it isn't tricky to find one with a below breed average COI, health tested parents, and from proven working lines. As Vicky said - COI isn't the only thing to look at - but is one part of the overall picture.

Matt, it's not 'hard' to find low COI labs, no. My own stud dog is the exact breed COI average, and I have bitches under and over that. But, it is not the way I want to select to breed, to produce the traits that I am after. I will keep a watchful eye on it, but it isn't my main consideration. Lowering COI and outcrossing sometimes is good (but you get unpredictability) but equally 'locking in' with a limited amount of linebreeding can also be good, to keep the traits that you want. So, I wouldn't let slightly higher COIs put me off certain matings, where I had extensive knowledge of the lines involved (and that last bit is critical).

[Matt]

KM - I'm not at all suggesting that people should use COI as their main consideration... But it is defintely one of the things I look for when buying a pup.

I wouldn't mind a COI a bit above the breed average if the rest of the things I was looking for were there - but more than double? Nope - I'd walk away from that litter without a single regret...

[Matt]

I was also responding to the bit about "this COI is really not realistic for the working Labrador population." I just don't agree. The genepool for labs is thankfully large enough that it should be very possible for people to breed around the average or lower, regardless of the fact that there's a split between work and show.

[kennel maiden]

Well, a COI double the alleged breed average in Labs wouldn't 'worry' me at all. I guess I am looking at the niche end of trialling labs, so it is not uncommon to see COIs around 10%. It certainly wouldn't put me off. But each to their own.

[kennel maiden]

This may be of interest to some:

trying to attach a file and it keeps coming up with error message...

[Hepe]

Short answer, no.

As I understand it the higher COI ought to produce a litter which is very similar and pups which ought to produce like themselves. Provided both dogs are free from hereditary disease and are strong for the characteristics of the common dog it can only be good. There can be skeletons in the cupboard which pop out, but the benefits outweigh the risk.

[kennel maiden]

I've got an interesting diagram of the COIs of all the 2015 IGL Retriever Championship runners, but it's not letting me post attachment unfortunately...